The Illusion of Choice: My Reaction to Taking20 Quitting Pathfinder

Episode #168. Professor Dungeonmaster reacts to Taking 20's Quitting Pathfinder and the illusion of choice. Do Pathfinder and 5E really offer more choices, options, and customization?

Music:
"Fury of the Dragon's Breath" by Peter Crowley

[rudeboyjohn]

"I have over 300 tools, but I only make boxes."
Vs.
"I have a skill to make whatever I feel like making"

[blitzthekraken]

I always think this funny, but honestly most folks don’t really see it because long term campaigns are rare. When you realize the scalability of the game is actually normalized you realize that the only thing left is good storytelling and role playing. It’s not about the spells and the buffs it’s about a shared experience and great storytelling. it’s about no matter how mundane something is, you can spruce it up with your own creativeness. Using the books are the igniter, you are the fire. A camp fire can be bad or good based on how you tend to the mundane actions of keeping it hot. As always, great insight.

[jarydf]

Theory crafting player builds is a different type of fun. Many people spend more time doing that than actually playing. That probably sells more rule books.

[Greydius]

This is the entire reason that I'm really glad to have a group that prioritizes role-playing choices over combat optimization (we play pf2e). I see a lot more varied combat strategies and the game is never stale... throwing a monster at the party that is 4 levels higher than the group genuinely *feels* like a boss fight that they might lose, and I don't have to build that tension as the GM, my players manage to do it for me by prioritizing fun characters over combat monkies

[Caja]

"Given the opportunity, players will optimize the fun out of a game."

[charper]

You're spot on with the illusion of choice. I hadn't thought of it this way before. One thing I've always done as a DM is reward non-combat solutions to encounters or even non-combat gameplay unrelated to encounters.

My rationale is that so much of game design is centered around extrinsic motivators (loot, XP, goblin ears). I try (sometimes more successfully than others) to let the players find their characters' intrinsic motivators and set up reward structures to accommodate.

Anyway, love the content! Thanks for this video.

[Taking]

So well spoken sir! Loved the video. And not JUST because you agreed with me hahaha

Keep the grind going my man!

[cntagn]

Other products mentioned in this video:

6:54 Old-School Essentials: Retro Adventure Game
7:07 Five Torches Deep
7:26 Lamentations of the Flame Princess
7:38 5e Hardcore Mode

[bonbondurjdr]

I'll say, I did learn a few things from examining the rules and how to use them. But what really helped me run better games was the AngryGM who gives amazing advice on the **how** to GM, and not just how to use and homebrew rules. Like, in-depths. And with his knowledge in my mind, I find myself needing less rules, or knowing how to use them way better than any in-detail video.

[Motavian]

What's more exciting, the time your 5e Paladin used smite and it did exactly what you thought it would do or the time that despite great odds, you stabbed your way up the cyclops' back and then cut his eye out?
You will exhaust the rules faster than you will exhaust dynamic, creative situations and solutions.

What story are you likely to tell? I realize that the two aren't mutually exclusive but they are often at ends with each other.

[Naruga]

I guess since I came into rpgs through CoC, I never really considered min-maxing and optimization. I will always choose based around character rp design rather than what skills are better than others. This may make my characters worse, but it honestly doesn't bother me as it's just the way we like to play.

[dangerdelw]

Opening my eyes to the scalability problem was a huge game changer for me! Thanks PDM!

[herryoung]

Oooh, I didn’t expect the patreon surprise additional content! Thanks for the vid, Prof! Great as always!

[SmokeConsciousHipHop]

Reminds me a lot of the Telltale Games "interactive story-telling" problem, everything is the illusion of choice rather than true choice. I doubt videogames will ever be able to allow for the sort of flexibility and credibility a good DM and players can bring to the table.

[Barquevious_Jackson]

Imagine thinking your only two options for role playing table top games are Pathfinder and Dungeons and Dragons.

That is a mindset I could never get behind.

[cameronmaas]

Another reason to why i think icrpg is pretty smart. Loot “level ups” the character, and that loot can be destroyed. Therefore, the character progression goes up and down like a wave instead of an upward curve.

[Ash.King.Y]

2 years later and the fight OGL x ORC changes the perspective.

[greetingcardboy]

Also, when Cody first mentioned the illusion of choice, I thought, "Has he ever played 1e D&D?" Because a 3rd level magic-user had to "choose" between magic missile or sleep and crap like Magic Mouth or Pyrotechnics. And you could waste a spell slot every day memorizing Detect Invisibility and never have it come up. In my experience, only Fate has solved the problems of scalability and balance (all spells do the same sorts of things in different narrative ways), and they did it by abstracting and going meta, which not everyone's a fan of doing.

[ablindwatchmakerUT]

I actually don’t understand the problem. As a GM, I go out of my way to make sure that encounters are always complex enough to allow for a near infinite number of solutions and potential challenges. Skills matter, and how you allocate points can be the difference between life and death. We recently had a campaign where someone had an optimized wizard nearly die because they couldn’t pass a DC 10 swim check. Incorporate things like weather, vision/light, terrain, elevation, enemies using tactics, special abilities, etc. The way people role-play matters, there’s real opportunity cost with respect to choices, etc.

[Rhone]

Professor, you have done MANY fine videos but sir, I believe this is the finest & my favorite. Your end comments were spot on & hilarious. To a better year in 2021! Thank you for your channel!