Saint Augustine & Sacred Scripture

A refutation of Dr. Gavin Ortlund

[okcthunder]

Well done William.

Saint Augustine
‘I would not believe in the Gospels were it not for the authority of the Catholic Church’ (Against the Letter of Mani Called “The Foundation” 5:6).

[mattkerekes]

Also, let's for the sake of argument assume that Augustine believed in Protestant sola scriptura (which he didn't). The problem is, like William said, is that he believes in Catholic doctrines explicitly like penance, purgatory, prayers of the saints, faith and works, Eucharist, sacraments. So, clearly even if Augustine believed in Sola Scriptura, he's coming to a conclusion that is completely contrary to Dr. Ortlund's. So, why should I trust Ortlund's interpeation over Augustine? After all, Dr. Ortlund's interpretation isn't infallible.

Would he accept Augustine saying that according to the tradition of the apostles that it's impossible for someone to inherit eternal life apart from eating at the table of the Lord (Eucharist) and baptism?

[TheJason]

I don’t dislike Ortlund, but I seriously lost a lot of respect for him when he tried to quote-mine and claim Augustine believed in SS.

[mattwilliams]

So far I’m half way through.(23 min mark) William keeps saying indeed we are going to get into the context and show how Gavin make elementary blunders. These bold claims have been made several times and yet so far all I have heard is bold claims with no arguments or evidence given. Hopefully gets better

[stooch]

Take this as a charitable joke: Ortlund has a Ph.D. in proof text quoting.

I am legitimately frustrated by how he and his ilk speak on these things as though they have made new discoveries and how these passages, which are ripped from volumes of work, support something that St. Augustine would fall over dead if he heard.

The biggest problem is that they have no understanding, let alone a deep understanding, of the workings of the Church. Without that, the words all exist on their own and mean nothing more than what they want them to mean in that moment.

I pray he opens his heart and mind to a deeper understanding so he can see where the fullness of God’s Truth resides.

[stevenstuart]

Looking forward to this, brother! I've been reading Augustine's writings for decades, and I know what you're dealing with. Blessings!

[american]

My first question is did St. Augustine really where a mitre as you show in your opening photo? Any proof would be appreciated.

[joshm]

Is the document for this available online?

[tonyl]

More Augustine quotes:
“To be sure, although on this matter, we cannot quote a clear example taken from the canonical Scriptures, at any rate, on this question, we are following the true thought of Scriptures when we observe what has appeared good to the universal Church which the authority of these same Scriptures recommends to you; thus, since Holy Scripture cannot be mistaken, anyone fearing to be misled by the obscurity of this question has only to consult on this same subject this very Church which the Holy Scriptures point out without ambiguity.” (Against Cresconius I:33; in Eno, 134)

“But those reasons which I have here given, I have either gathered from the authority of the church, according to the tradition of our forefathers, or from the testimony of the divine Scriptures, or from the nature itself of numbers and of similitudes. No sober person will decide against reason, no Christian against the Scriptures, no peaceable person against the church.” (On the Trinity, 4, 6:10; NPNF 1, Vol. III, 75)

“[L]et the reader consult the rule of faith which he has gathered from the plainer passages of Scripture, and from the authority of the Church….” (On Christian Doctrine, 3, 2:2; NPNF 1, Vol. II, 557)

“The authority of our books [Scriptures], which is confirmed by agreement of so many nations, supported by a succession of apostles, bishops, and councils, is against you.” (Reply to Faustus the Manichaean, 13:5; NPNF 1, Vol. IV, 201)

“As to those other things which we hold on the authority, not of Scripture, but of tradition, and which are observed throughout the whole world, it may be understood that they are held as approved and instituted either by the apostles themselves, or by plenary Councils, whose authority in the Church is most useful, e.g. the annual commemoration, by special solemnities, of the Lord’s passion, resurrection, and ascension, and of the descent of the Holy Spirit from heaven, and whatever else is in like manner observed by the whole Church wherever it has been established…. For often have I perceived, with extreme sorrow, many disquietudes caused to weak brethren by the contentious pertinacity or superstitious vacillation of some who, in matters of this kind, which do not admit of final decision by the authority of Holy Scripture, or by the tradition of the universal Church….” (Letter to Januarius, 54, 1, 1; 54, 2, 3; cf. NPNF 1, I, 301)

“For this question of baptism had not been as yet completely worked out, but yet the Church observed the most wholesome custom of correcting what was wrong, not repeating what was already given, even in the case of schismatics and heretics: she healed the wounded part, but did not meddle with what was whole. And this custom [of not re-baptizing heretics], coming, I suppose, from tradition (like many other things which are held to have been handed down under their actual sanction, because they are preserved throughout the whole Church, though they are not found either in their letters, or in the Councils of their successors), — this most wholesome custom, I say, according to the holy Cyprian, began to be what is called amended by his predecessor Agrippinus. But, according to the teaching which springs from a more careful investigation into the truth, which, after great doubt and fluctuation, was brought at last to the decision of a plenary Council….” (On Baptism, 2, 7, 12)

“[T]he custom, which is opposed to Cyprian, may be supposed to have had its origin in apostolic tradition, just as there are many things which are observed by the whole Church, and therefore are fairly held to have been enjoined by the apostles, which yet are not mentioned in their writings.” (On Baptism, 5, 23, 31)

“As to the first man, the father of mankind, it is agreed by almost the entire Church that the Lord loosed him from that prison; a tenet which must be believed to have been accepted not without reason, — from whatever source it was handed down to the Church—although the authority of the canonical Scriptures cannot be brought forward as speaking expressly in its support, though this seems to be the opinion which is more than any other borne out by these words in the book of Wisdom (Wisdom 10:1-2).” (Letter to Evodius of Uzalis, Epistle 164:6; NPNF 1, Vol. I, 516)

“God has placed this authority first of all in his Church.” (Explanations of the Psalms, Tract 103:8, PL 37:520-521; in Congar, 392)

“It is obvious; the faith allows it; the Catholic Church approves; it is true.” (Sermon 117, 6)

[mattwilliams]

Well the second half was better than the first but I think William failed to understand the point Gavin was making and therefore situated his arguments against points that didn’t address Gavin’s. That said, I thought he made an ok case trying to make it seem as though Augustine couldn’t have been including ecumenical councils in his usage of plenary councils. Also I think William made a fair observation that Augustine was referring to other writings when he was speaking of holding only the scriptures as infallible, although I think he overstated Augustine to be speaking of books with known errors.

Overall I think Gavin’s argument holds up against Williams refutation pretty easily. Hopefully everyone will go watch Gavin’s whole video.

[Anaxagoras-qrzn]

Really looking forward to this. It pains me to see how much St Augustine is slandered by Protestants.

[cole]

Albrecht: “He clearly isn’t talking about ecumenical councils in these instances of plenary”

Augustine: “..formed for the whole Christian world”

[takmaps]

To try to make Augustine or any of the early church fathers proto Protestant leads them to a world of problems. They would have to explain away all the very Catholic doctrines held by the apostolic faith.

[mattkerekes]

Yes, please do a video on St. John Chrysostom alone. Chrysostom and Augustine, representing East and West, are such mega figures and are very Catholic indeed. Also, any time you have Fr. Kappes would be great. Fr. Kappes is the man!

[imjustheretogrill]

William, you have zeal for the faith. Jesus and the Apostles did not have an irenic approach as their goal. This is serious business and heresies must be identified and denounced for the salvation of souls.

I appreciate your tone and pious zeal for the true faith. As much as I like Gavin and his content, as faithful Catholics, we understand that his soul and that of those who follow him are at stake. Did the great saints treat heresy or those who spread them with a tone seeking peace?

[Mkvine]

Great work William. I loved your explanation of plenary councils, Dr. Ortlund was clueless about this.

[gto]

I love your passion. Sadly you get attacked for it by other Christians.

[davidszaraz]

I really enjoy and appreciate your responses to Mr. Rogers and Dr. Ortlund. You are such a blessing William!

[nikolakrcic]

The absolute best answer of the night! Dr. What church will you have them go to? That is the nail in the coffin rite there!. Strong strong truth in that statement. That is why i love being catholic, & i pray for all to come to Christ's church.

[american]

At time stamp 16:00 you state that you agree that the Bible is superior to the letters of Augustine and Jerome. However that is in direct conflict to the Catechism of the Catholic Church. Please read The New Saint Joseph Baltimore Catechism No 2, page 20, where it states Augustine and Jerome are part of the group of writers that contributed to “divine tradition“. Further, it asks the question “has divine tradition, the same force as the Bible? “ Answer, Yes, divine tradition, has the same force as the Bible since it too contains Gods revelation to men.“
PS the above Catholic teaching has the Imprimatur of Francis Cardinal Spellman, Archbishop of New York.