Why Alcos Smoke So Much

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[loganbaileysfunwithtrains]

Nice visuals, and I hate to be the “keyboard expert” but some of the information is incorrect. When I went to tech school as a diesel mechanic there was a specific class taught on forced air systems like turbos, blowers, superchargers etc, and the basics taught were theres no such thing as a “belt driven turbo” it’s a common misnomer for what is called a centrifugal supercharger or in the auto tuner world they are called “pro chargers”, a turbo charger is always driven by exhaust gas it’s never mechanically driven turbos do suffer from turbo lag which is their down side as the engine has to rev up to build “boost” when you don’t “build boost” you get black exhaust like the Alcos. Super chargers are always driven mechanically either by a belt, chain or gear, powered by the engine itself. The upside to a supercharger is they are always providing “boost” as they are running directly off the engine and thus there’s no lag and no smoke in the system, this is why on EMDs they don’t smoke out the yard, also because of EMDs two stroke design there’s no “intake” stroke of the piston unlike on 4 strokes so they need a blower or supercharger to constantly force air into the piston, later EMDs as well as GMs Detroit Diesels (which are also 2 stroke) began putting turbos on their engines that would feed air into the super chargers that would then push it into the engine, providing a lot of high pressure air into the system, thus giving them more power output. GE runs a pretty standard system of a 4 stroke engine with a big turbo, similar to the Alcos but I believe how GE fixed the “lag” issue was by making their engines idle at a higher RPM which keeps the turbo spun up so there’s not as big of a lag of power to the engine and not as much black exhaust getting dumped. Granted I’m not a locomotive mechanic I’ve only worked on semi and construction equipment engines so I’ve speculated on a few things that I’m not super familiar with. Still a nice video with great scenery and shots of those old alcos

[delhatton]

Cool video. I once owned a diesel. I once got pulled over. I explained to the cop that when I talked to the mechanics at the dealership about the black smoke the response was "deal with it". He was not happy but I did not get a ticker. By the way, I grew up in the age of steam. I know smoke. I was told that the best engineers could run almost smokeless. An engine belching clouds of black smoke was a sign of a lesser engineer.

[sferg]

A "belt-driven turbo" isn't a turbo at all, but rather a centrifugal supercharger. Turbos require exhaust gasses to spin the turbine wheel which in turn spins the compressor wheel.

[matthewbeasley]

EMD doesn't have a fluid coupling in the turbo drive, it has an over-running clutch. It is mandatory because the EMD is a two stroke and the engine won't run without forced induction. At low power the turbo is spun by the crank, but at higher speed the turbo accelerates and the over-running clutch lets go.

[leagueofrailway]

I am from India and even today alcos have a little bit of turbo delay you can still see black smoke for 10 secs in some variants and it looks awsm

[edwardpate]

Turbo belt driven? By nature all turbochargers are driven by exhaust gases. Anything mechanically driven is a Supercharger.

[AUSSIETRAINDRIVER]

The real reason they heavily smoke under rapid acceleration is because the turbo (exhaust driven) has insufficient Exhaust gas to match the fuel that's been added, its very common on mechanically Fuel injected diesels, the fuel is matched to the airflow the turbo is predicted to produce, so adding fuel gently notch by notch will limit the black smoke as theres air from the previous notch of power to match the fuel and thus create a leaner AFR and cleaner stack. however to notch up fast will mean fuel is added for selected notch, if its zero to notch 6, the governor will open the governor to notch 6, the air has to catch up, meaning the air fuel ratio is extremely rich (too much fuel, not enough air, heavy black smoke, this is generally inefficient and sustained rich fuel can result in high engine temperatures, excess carbon build up (which usually burns off once the air catches up.) many alcos run around 15psi of inlet manifold pressure in notch 8 full power, which is why they generally made more power in the top end over early roots blown emds, also blowers take horsepower to feed air as a parasitic load. turbos use exhaust gas but the draw back is the time it takes to spool it up to produce the necessary air pressure.

this is often part of why alcos can blow glowing ash when the stack clears up.

EMD's however are 2 stroke and require intake air to push exhaust gas out of the cylinder, for this reason they use roots blowers, the turbo model had 2 issues to be solved, make more power from the same size engine.

EMD overcame the issue with the with a gear driven Turbocharger, so its a blower (similar to a centrifugal supercharger) down low in the rpm.

At Notch 5/6 a clutch disengages, allowing exhaust gas to drive what is now a turbocharger, for this reason EMDs don't generally lag, they always have the air the engine and fuel demands by design. and thus it makes these units more efficient from notch 6, 7, 8 than they can be in lower notches, by having less parasitic load.

hope that helps. Former locomotive maintainer and current locomotive driver

[ianboard]

I used to pass by their plant all the time when I was a little kid in Schenectady NY. I remember the locomotives in the yard with liveries from all over the world.

[brianhickey]

You nailed it. The black smoke is almost always from too much fuel. I grew up near the Alco factory in NY and they were some great looking units - even with black smoke :)

[bassman]

The biggest reason they smoke much more than any other 4 stroke is that the governors that controlled the racks for the mechanical injectors. GE and in fact many diesel truck engine manufacturers such as mack and caterpillar had mechanical devices operated by intake manifold pressure, that wouldn’t allow the injection pump or control rack into a full fuel position until there was enough boost pressure. Alco’s did not have this and thus when the engineer advanced the throttle the full amount of fuel for the throttle setting was there whether the engine could properly use it or not. Hence why you’d rarely see a older ge smoking like that unless the injection rack was out of adjustment as the engine aged. And why modern locomotives barely smoke at all as they’re electronically controlled and the electronic fuel injectors are controlled via feedback from intake manifold pressure and many other sensors. That coupled with the fact that alco designed their locomotives to take a load on the generator instantly. EMD and GE’s limited how fast their generators took a load to encourage gentler train handling and reduce pull aparts etc. which made alco’s and their almost instant throttle response well liked for switching and other tasks. Coupled further still with how sensitive alco’s are on their fuel injection rack settings and adjustments. A properly adjusted engine will surprisingly smoke very little, but each engine had to pretty much have its unique adjustment and can vary from engine to engine. Many people lack the tools needed and the art of properly maintaining one is one of those pieces of knowledge that unfortunately has been lost to time.

[danielcrawford]

As a US Navy Engineman we had ALCO Diesels on the LST’s 2, 750 HP each Two shafts with 3 -V16’s on each shaft. They were, nicknamed the Smokin “T, s” and they were designed to use oil about a gallon a hour if I remember right. That could account for some smoke. The heaviest smoke was when we put the load to them, but smoothed out when the scavenging air took over. Turbos were big heavy monsters about 1, 200 lbs. a part of a turbo smashed my thumb. Bad enough to deform it to this day. The exhaust header was tuned. And a finely tuned was done by the cylinder temps and eye amount of fuel going through the injector pump metered to match the other cylinder temps within 50 degrees between each and evert 16 cylinders.

[henryszubielski]

Cool video. You always seem to find the good locations!
Minor note on the D&H PA's: they started life with 16-244's, when upgraded to the PA4 by M-K; had 12-251B upgraded to 12-251C (2000hp to 2400hp). When FNM in Mexico restored 19 and 17 they received 12-251B's.
Other note; Baldwin's were 4 cycle diesel engines, as were the Lima-Hamilton's.
When George Hockaday worked for the D&H, he worked out a new injector cam timing that helped reduce the black smoke on the 244's. This information was used when M-K upgraded the PA's.
It should also be understood that as injectors and turbos wear, the combination also contributes to all of the black smoke.
Look at freshly overhauled/rebuilt GE or ALCO prime movers and there is very little black smoke. That lag/hiccup is usually a white or whitish-gray color.
Regarding the F-M opposed piston engines, I can't recall hearing anything about the exhaust. That is an interesting one. The biggest thing that hurt F-M after the war was a union strike that basically halted their production, 1954 ish IIRC. The PRR, IC and several other railroads had large orders of Trainmasters on the books that FM could not fill. Those railroads ended up shopping elsewhere.
EMD 710 series are 2 cycle, the 265H and the new 1010 are 4 cycle.

[philliplee]

I’m a 80’s baby January of 83 I love emd and alco power awesome video bud

[micheltherriault]

The main reason for smoked 251 Alco engines is bad maintenance.
I worked almost 6 years on RS18, RSD15, C630, C636 and M636 and we not tolerate a smoky engine like that .
Most of the locomotives had worked more than 40 years with a major overhaul somewhere between 500, 000 and 1, 000, 000 miles done .x( 10 to 20 years in average )
When we saw an engine smoke like that, it was immediately send for a repair : faulty injector pump, injector or turbocharger.
Badly adjusted fuel rack or lot of leaking between the engine and turbocharger . Sometimes a faulty cylinder head valves .
After the repair done, I must say that smoke was disappearing.

I must admit that today, genuine parts are not available and find good quality spare parts is difficult and expensive .
Also, well trained repairman is missing too .

When I see an engine smoke like that, I see lot of pollution and $$$$ of fuel .

[rossbryan]

I HAVE WORKED ON THE ALCO 251 ENGINES ON SANTA FE AND THERE IS A MECHANICAL LINKAGE ARRANGEMENT THAT ALLOWS OPERATION WITH LESS SMOKE.
BASICALLY IT SLOW THE MOVEMENT OF THE INJECTION PUMP LAYSHAFT UNTIL TURBOCHARGER MANIFOLD AIR PRESSURE BUILDS UP TO A CERTAIN VALUE!
THIS ADJUSTMENT CAN BE BEST ACCOMPLISHED WHILE THE LOCOMOTIVE IS ON A LOAD BOX
RATHER THAN THE ROAD!
IF THE SYSTEM IS SET TOO TIGHT
IT KEEPS ENGINE FROM ACCELERATING AND IF SET TOO LOOSE WILL ALLOW EXCESS SMOKE!
THERE IS A VERY NARROW ADJUSTMENT BAND FOR PROPER
ADJUSTMENT!
THE BEST CURE FOR THIS PROBLEM WAS MADE BY THE LATE GREAT GEORGE HOCKADAY!
HE DEVISED AN ELECTRICAL CONTROL THAT VARIED MAIN GENERATOR EXCITATION ACCORDING TO TURBO PRESSURE OUTPUT!
THE FIRST APPLICATION WAS ON THE 4 EX SANTA FE PA-3 LOCOMOTIVES THAT HAD THE 244-16 ENGINES REMOVED AND REPLACED WITH 251 -12 CYLINDER ENGINES.
THIS ELIMINATED APPROXIMATELY 80 % OF THE SMOKING!!
KEEP THEM ROLLING BROTHERS!!
👍👍

[arnabbhowmick]

If you ever come to India then you will be able to see ALCO locos running all around India with its distinctive sound we have WDM 2 WDM 3 series actively hauling trains.. Also neighbour like Sri Lanka and Bangladesh use these locos too.

[bkailua]

A belt driven or gear driven compressor that increases air into the engine is called a supercharger. The "turbo" is the turbine that is turned by exhaust gases. A turbine powered supercharger is called a "turbo or turbocharger or turbosupercharger"

[Greatdome]

Ouch! Turbos are powered by exhaust gasses; superchargers are powered by belts (or gears). Turbocharged EMDs had both superchargers for low speed operation and turbochargers for higher speeds. As speed increased and the turbo spun up to speed, an overrunning clutch disengaged the supercharger.
Alco 251s are still in production at Fairbanks-Morse for industrial use. Two of them power the Kennedy Space Center launch vehicle.

[patrickpeake]

The smoke was very useful when we first introduced remote controlled helpers because we could see three plumes of smoke and know all was ok

[cedriclynch]

If you were born too late to see and hear these locomotives working in the USA, pay a visit to India. Alco locomotives were built under license there until just a few years ago and there are large numbers of them in use. They sound the same as the ones in this video, and they are well known for making clouds of black smoke for several seconds if the driver quickly applies full power from idle. There are many videos of them on the Internet. The Indian Alco locomotives are very reliable; I have ridden thousands of miles behind them and none have ever broken down.