Did Death Exist Before the Fall? #genesis #creation #evolution

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[MFPmarcus]

If death didn’t exist before the fall, can somebody please tell me what the purpose of a tree of life that makes people eternal would be ?

[MalusTmcraeensis]

Robert Bakker, my favorite paleontologist and one of the men responsible for the Dinosaur Renaissance, is a Christian who points out similar things Mike does.

[Paul-A]

In Genesis 1:31 it says "God saw all that he had made, and it was very good." Does the word "good" here mean perfect and complete or does it mean satisfactory?

[Andy-Christian]

Creation was originally perfect. Taking over the wild land and using it to farm or have a house, does not mean you had to engage in violence.

[Oak_II]

The word כבשו does mean conquer but not necessarily in a war. It just means that God told men kind to spread, conquer the land and make it their own.

[Noah]

That's a massive stretch. Subdue the earth just means to use nature, and have dominion. Also nothing about it says anything about death.

[Oak_II]

There are two problems with what he says: one is that when God speaks everything into existence he then says that it's good, if God considers billions of years of death and suffering "good" then he isn't that good of a God isn't he? Second problem is that if death doesn't originates from sin then death can't be the payment for sin, which means that the death of Christ on the cross cannot pay for our sins = we aren't saved.

[deadalivemaniac]

I still like Michael’s material and he’s a fantastic mind but this will always be where we part ways. I know he’ll cite modern scholarship but I’ll stick with the Church on this. And the harsh conquest is assuming that that is the privileged translation over any other.

[PyrBen]

I think this interpretation of Genesis falls short when we look at creation's significance to the entire biblical narrative.

The whole point of Jesus redeeming our sins is so that God can restore the Garden of Eden, or the perfect world He created so all who trust in Him. can live and enjoy Him forever. The lion and the lamb will lie down together. That doesn't sound like a world full of chaos. That sounds like a perfect world in which no creature has to suffer.

Furthermore, I don't think the God of the Bible would use evolution as his method of creation. Evolution is a wasteful, cruel process. A God who would subject his creation to such a thing as millions of years of death before he finally decided to put humans on the earth a couple thousand years ago arbitrarily is NOT a God I'm interested in worshipping.

I think we can take the creation account in Genesis seriously. Jesus cited Genesis more than any other book. If Genesis is a lie, then Jesus is a liar. Since Jesus is Lord, we can trust that he told is the truth about the beginning of life and the universe! I understand young earth creation science is still pretty new and has a long way to go to put forth a viable model, but I think there's reason to be optimistic!

[PraiseYahforHeisHoly]

If God created an evil world, that would change my entire view of the character of God. He set us up for suffering? No, we set ourselves up for suffering and we continue to do so as we live outside the will of God. Every green thing was given for food, not animals. It was not a harsh world before sin. The garden was meant to spread. Cultivate, garden the world. This is evident in view of the new earth we look forward to joining as Christ followers. Suffering will not continue into the new age because it was never meant to be a part of the world.

[Lessonius]

This is one of the things I find hard to believe Michael is a proponent of, as it's simply ridiculous. Death comes through Adam and Eves' fall and it has a cosmic effect - That's the subduing part, you made the Earth your enemy due to the cosmic consequences of the fall, there was more to the fall than "death", but that's the major part, the other part is bringing back chaos to what God had put in order during the days of creation. If we bring other "humanoids" into the scene, then we might as well throw the Bible away, as there's obviously someone out there who did what JHWH did first.

Trying to "science" your way into God's ways will never work and will only impede the truth. Science your way into the resurrection of the dead. Into Jesus' resurrection. Into demonic possession. Into the breath of life (which already negates the "abiogenesis and evolution" part, btw). The list goes on and on. Science is not an enemy, but trying to "fuse" it and make either the Bible conform to it or the other way around is a task that simply doesn't work, regardless how you try to spin it.
"Your ways are not my ways".

[rebukey]

You are a smart guy, but I’m sorry. Your argument was unconvincing.

[Leavemealonenowplz]

So many of the early Church fathers caution against a literal reading of creation too. I don’t understand why it’s such a hang-up

for people.

I think the logic is “If evolution is true, there was no Adam/Eve. If there’s no Adam/Eve, there’s no original sin. If there’s no original sin, there’s no need for the paschal sacrifice.”

But once again, that’s only a problem if you take Genesis as a literal account of the world. It’s ironic too, because I think biblical literalism has its own share of problems, but some people are content to ignore those.

[frogpaste]

I had this discussion with someone recently and he argued that Adam didn't eat meat before the fall because that would require death.

I pointed out that even apples are still alive after they're picked. You can observe them processing sugars, cells dividing, etc. and so eating even fruit and vegetables would require death of some kind.

[PoppinPsinceAD]

Creation could have definitely been complemented by evolution, but the nihilistic ideas that come from them when paired with atheism is what we fight against.

[LordGenesis]

Paul believed that human death came through one man (1Cor 15:21-22). Why do we need EVOLUTION which requires human death to create life? Creation is categorically opposed to so-called human evolution.

[IAmFingers]

God created the world good, in fulfillment. There is no room for evolution, the killing of animals came only after the need for a sacrifice. General catechism lesson. Adam was not an evolutionary being. He fell into sin, hence death.

[firefull]

God told Adam he would die. I didn't hear Adam say, "What is die?"

[Raiden-siru]

I think you may be one of my new favorite channels

[hermanwooster]

Death did not exist before the fall. Death came when sin entered the world. Sin did not enter the world until man sinned. This is all in the Bible.