Peter Thiel on the Triumph of the Counter-Elites

On Tuesday night, president-elect Donald Trump announced that the richest man in the world, Elon Musk, along with entrepreneur Vivek Ramaswamy will head a new initiative in the Trump administration: the Department of Government Efficiency, or “DOGE.”

Aside from the very strange fact that internet meme culture has now landed in the White House—Dogecoin is a memecoin—more importantly, what the announcement solidifies is the triumph of the counter-elite. A bunch of oddball outsiders ran against an insular band of out-of-touch elites supported by every celebrity in Hollywood—and they won. And they are about to reshape not just the government but also the culture in ways we can’t imagine.

And there was one person I wanted to discuss it with. He is the vanguard of those antiestablishment counter-elites: Peter Thiel.

On the surface, Thiel is someone who seems full of contradictions. He is a libertarian who has found common cause with nationalists and populists. He likes investing in companies that have the ability to become monopolies, and yet Trump’s White House wants to break up Big Tech. He is a gay American immigrant, but he hates identity politics and the culture wars. He pays people to drop out of college, but, in this conversation at least, still seems to venerate the way that the Ivy Leagues are an indicator of intelligence.

But perhaps that’s the secret to his success: He’s beholden to no tribe but himself, no ideology but his own.

Today: Thiel explains why so many of his peers have finally come around to Trump; why he thinks Kamala—and liberalism more broadly—lost the election; and why the Trump 2.0 team will be better than last time, with antiestablishment figures who are willing to rethink the system. We talk about the border, trade deals, student debt, Israel and foreign policy, the rise of historical revisionism, the blurry line between skepticism and conspiracy, and his contrarian ideas about what we might face in a dreaded World War III.

[lenhealy]

Lindsey Graham, and probably other gay men, have spoken at the RNC before Peter.

[SilenceInTheBliss]

Having heard so many scary things about Peter Thiel, at least in this interview, I find him refreshingly enlightened.

[stephenkenney]

The Ivy League has been on a downward spiral the last 25 years.

[SUPRATIMBISWAS-tx]

This is one of the most thoughtful converasations I have heard all year ...., . Thiel is an incredible thinker and Bari Weiss is a skilled inetrrogator

[heathmckenzie]

Guys counter elites always come from the elite class.

[Geezerelli]

Excellent interview. It ties things I imagined together as a man of 78 that lived this insanity.😢

[dpause]

Listening to Peter Thiel sure makes you feel like a pawn of the elites regardless of which persuasion they are beholden to.

[MusicalMemeology]

Peter Thiel is one of the great thinkers of our generation. Sadly looking at comments his wisdom is lost on people who don’t argue his points but think some ad hominem is an argument. I’d love to see a debate on his actual points here to discuss lest the dogmatic win over like he said.

[tmjmccormack]

Oddball outsiders? These are some of the most powerful people in the USA

[devin_]

The idea of presenting Palantir guy/national security contractor/monopoly capitalist Peter Thiel as a ‘rebel’ is laughable to me.

[romulusdefensegroup]

Refreshing hearing a billionaire discuss which Law School is elite enough for his taste

[BM-pmzw]

Great interview Bari! Whether you agree or disagree with Mr. Theil, he is fascinating to listen to. Because you asked interesting, high level questions and gave him the opportunity to respond fully, this interview will stand the test of time as a classic. Mr. Thiel’s unique thoughts and insights on such a wide variety of complex issues was intriguing.

Outstanding podcast!

[rhodaberger]

I've come to believe that raw intellect is distinct from intellectual independence. I'm sure, for example, that there were other brilliant minds during the time of Gallileo. But, Gallileo had the kind of spirit that required him to speak his truth.

[banihas]

The U.S. has become what it fought to break away from over 200 years ago. Billionaires are the new monarchy, and economically struggling citizens are being drawn toward those who will ultimately increase their hardships.

[JohnHandzo]

I really find Peter to be extremely entertaining. I don’t even have to agree with him on everything, but his points of view are always a fun ride and usually offer a completely different and sometimes ridiculous take on reality. I really enjoyed this.

[Tufas]

From someone outside the political class: Both parties seem like The Machine. It will never not be funny that some people on the inside always seem to think that the other party is The Machine. From the outside it is just two The Machines fighting each-other.

[sabiel]

Sorry for the very long comment; I couldn't help myself after listening. Peter Thiel's arguments in this conversation are riddled with significant contradictions that are hard to ignore. He criticizes elitism and the out-of-touch nature of the Democratic Party and liberal institutions, yet he places high value on elite credentials when they suit his narrative. For example, he emphasizes JD Vance's Yale Law degree and highlights Trump's Ivy League education. This selective appreciation of elite backgrounds undermines his critique of elitism and suggests a double standard.

Secondly, Thiel champions individual thought, skepticism, and the challenging of groupthink, especially within liberal institutions that he views as suppressing dissent. However, he supports Donald Trump, known for demanding loyalty and often dismissing dissenting voices within his administration. This support for a leader who suppresses internal criticism conflicts with Thiel's advocacy for open discourse and individualism.

Thirdly, while he condemns the Democratic Party's focus on identity politics as divisive and lacking substance, Thiel supports Republican strategies that similarly appeal to specific identities—like nationalism and traditional values—that can alienate minority groups. Engaging in identity-based strategies while criticizing others reflects a contradictory stance.

Lastly, Thiel asserts that many institutions are corrupt and failing. Yet, he proposes solutions that depend on these institutions for implementation, such as altering NIH funding practices or restructuring federal agencies through executive action. This reliance on institutions he deems irredeemably broken suggests an inconsistency in his argument about their ability to effect change. Overall, Thiel's arguments selectively apply principles when convenient, leading to a web of contradictions that undermine the coherence of his perspective. Overall, Thiel seems to interpret events through his own biases rather than based on objective facts. His analysis reflects his personal perspectives and ideological leanings more than a balanced situation assessment.

[jacquieloller]

This conversation was incredible. I feel like I need to listen a second time because there was just so much. Peter is incredibly knowledgeable and Bari asks such great questions. Wow.

[jamsteroffthewheel]

‘Counter elites’ these tech billionaires got ur brains on lock

[MSinFL]

Peter is one of my absolute heroes and role models. I dont know if he is being modest but he was instrumental in my awareness of the shift that the Democratic Party had taken. Him speaking at the RNC was indeed groundbreaking for us gay republicans (gasp, clutches pearls) particularly those of us in SV at the time. For me, it wasn't Elon that cleared the way. It was Peter.
Also, I loved that he backed and financed the attorneys representing Hulk Hogan when he had secret cameras placed throughout his home for these creeps to spy on him. Mind blowing case. I love that he brought down Gawker.
Zero to One was also amazing albeit a bit over my head at times. Mainly, I just hope that he understands how important he is (to someone like me) and also how necessary at this time in our country as we forge a path forward.
Great interview! Thanks for doing it Peter