LEAD ACID is the FUTURE, Lithium batteries will never work

[mikeselectricstuff]

What rate of regen and fast-charge can you get with lead-acid ?
Lead-acid has not been "used for 150 years successfully" for road transport traction outside of a few small niches. Don't you think there;s areason for this?
You claim that "maximum" discharge rate is C/10, approx 12kW. You then say you are using a 700hp ( ~500kW) motor and claiming 0-60 in 6 seconds.
You claim around-town draw is 2A, so 6A across 3 parallel battery strings, * 400v = 2.4kW. A good EV powertrain can do 5 miles/kwH, so at 30mph, avarage draw is 6kW, and that's before you start counting all the stop/start, which lead-acid can't benefit from due to low regen power.

[sundance]

I will never buy a self igniting Lithium ion powered car. I would buy a lead acid today if there were any on the market.

[thelement]

all your points, premises, and reasons are solid and responsible. i like it sir

[jeffreycooke]

Lead-acid is great if you don't want to go anywhere.

[Niko-rqie]

Lithium battery pack with bms and cooling costs 132 dollars per kWh at 2021. Best lead-acid batteries cost way more and last only few years or few hundred cycles compared to 1000+ with lithium. Lead battery capacity is also limited becausw of weight and small capacity makes batteries to wear out even faster.

Yes, starter batteries are cheap, but last only few months om heavy use.

So lithium is way cheaper to buy and about 10 times cheaper to use. Because they last over a decade. Easily.

[flygyro]

Very interesting, thank you for taking the time to post this and the info. I spoke to some Chinese batteries manufacturers the other day - march 2022 - and they are all saying that the price of LIFEPO4 batteries for Ev are going up in price, not down. The cheapest I could find - about 7500 USD for 30kwh, double that for 70kwh. And that does not includes shipping costs and import taxes of course.

[joeflemmington]

Lithium batteries, concerning energy stored per volume, is really nice. However, lithium's low density, and number of chemicals in a lithium battery, make it very tough to recycle on a large scale. Lithium is also scarce. On the other hand, Sodium batteries seem very promising. They are easier to recycle, and sodium is very plentiful (all the salt in the ocean is roughly 40% sodium by weight). The only thing is that energy stored per weight would be lower, since Sodium is heavier. Sodium is also a bigger atom than lithium, so it cannot directly replace lithium in a lithium battery; if you did, the battery would swell. But if a viable method is found, sodium batteries are very promising.

[DJignyte]

Eh I wouldnt call Lead acid cheap. Cheaper than Lithium currently? Yeah, but when you factor in the usable capacity of Lead acids (around 50%) vs the usable capacity of lithium -based (almost 100%) the capacity per cost is roughly the same.

[maurosmorto]

I was thinking the same... It would be nicer to recycle in a proper way old led batteries and improve that technology instead of stealing Africa of its own natural resources such as lithium and manganese for the making of new technology batteries... New technology with a huge human cost as well

[mh]

I search for 48 volts solar battery and found your video
Are you still recommending lead acid deep cycle or lithium
Because the prices is too close if calculate the dod and cycles

[able]

My grandfather was an early 1900s electrican -
In the rural areas of the US from the 1890s rural homes that had electricity were powered by battery's - most used lead acid batterys -
Rural homes in the southern portion of the US used lead acid batterys that had a acid strength at full charge of 1.190 -
A standard motive battery has an acid strength of. 1.275 - so they dont last very long -
In the deep south US it never gets below 5°F - with acid at 1.190 strength the acid freezes at below 0° F -
Acid strength was set by the lowest out side temperure -
At 1.190 there is a 40% capacity loss - the standing voltage at 80° F is 2 volts per cell -
As a kid i went to rural homes with my uncles and grandfaters to work on farm light plant genrators and house battery's -
Battery banks were sized to be charged once a week over 8 to 12 hrs - most farm homes in the US that had power were 28 to 32 volts -
The homes that used an acid of 1.190 had 17 two volt cells and the homes in colder parts used 1.220 acid strength those had 16 two volt cells -
In the US there was a complete line of 32 volt appliances sold to rural customers that used 32 volts DC - just as city people had -
Lead acid batterys with the weaker 1.190 electrolight had an expected service life of at least 60 yrs or longer -
Those that used a1.220 strength acid had a expected life cycle of 40 yrs or longer charging once a week -
Batterys with weaker acid rarely have cell failure also its rare to have termanal corrosion -
As a kid i saw many batterys that were 60 yrs old or older - the plates in those glass cells still looked new after 60 yrs -
After 60 yrs you could raise the cell voltage for 5 minutes to were the cell rapidly gassed to desulate them that might be 2.8 volts or higher - then they came back to 100% capacity -
In this country befor the REA times 32 volt DC homes were very common in rural America -
You can google Delco Farm Light Plants on the net and there is a lot of information on the subject from 1890 till 1960 or so -
Were i live at huricanes and ice storms can knock the power out for very long periods - so a hybrid system reduces fuel consumption of a generator dematicaly -
Also with the weaker acid even when the battery sets the self discharge rate is very slow -
When i was a kid many had camps in marsh areas and the batterys would set for 8 or 10 months till they were charged and equalized -
They dont have to be on a float charge when the acid is weaker -
I worked as a offshore oiland gas electrican for decades we still use lead acid batterys for the huricane mode - there generally 1.220 or less -

[tiggersts]

Have been having the same argument lately, particularly the point with cheap Asian and Indian cars worth less than AU$1000, because you're only using five 12 V lead acid, inverter, rack and pinion steering and keeping it simple. The range might only be hundred and 50 km but you can reach 120 km/h. Secondly comes recycling, what if we redesign or even if we don't let acid battery, and you pull up at your service station and pull out your battery packs, or redesign your lead acid battery to be 48 V within the plates, which can be washed at the service station and technically recycled ready to be put into the next batteries until the anode eventually wears out in the lead recycled melted down and turned into thin, high surface area plates that fit the same size batteries we have now? Recharge time less than a minute, it's a redox chemical reaction to scrub the lead oxide/sulphide, so no power required, compared to charging a lithium battery which takes 5 to 15 minutes get you maybe 500 to a thousand charges and maybe 400 to 500 km range, and needs to be recycled after 3 to 4 years which means separating for different metals and inexpensive plant to do so. The other thing about the Asian cars is a using washing machine motors… Old school technology still, which we could advance, along with the battery and all of a sudden let acid EV becomes a whole lot more attractive. The redox scrubbing at the service station contains lead for recycling, your battery when it eventually wears out of let ions are contained and can be easily melted into new plates and refurbish battery produced at a low temperature, possibly using renewable energy, or even chemistry to drop it out of solution before potentially putting it through a magnifying glass to melt and turn into plates again, and acid and away you go with a brand-new set of five batteries. And how many times of these recharge? Far more than 500, 000 cycles.

[DogsBAwesome]

On the skid steer, they had on fully charged the other week lead-acid batteries make sense as they act as a counterweight, for a car hell no.

[able]

Yes with weak acid there will be more cycles over the life of the battery -
If you look at the amount of cycles a AGM battery can handle at a fixed DOD and compare it to a gel cell in cycle service a gel cell always out performs an AGM - the problem is that the stronger acid decomposes the positive plate -
In New Orleans in the French quarter on bourbon street was an early power plant that furnished the French quarter with 110 volts DC -
It was in service for yrs, I don't know if it was before 1900 or not - the French Quarter up till about 1970 or so had customers that were using 4 different voltages and different frequency's - also DC 110/220 -
The Bourbon Street power plant provided the DC customers for several decades -
With AC the generators run continues so they burned 6 to 10 times more fuel -
The DC power plant just charged 2 to 6 hrs a day at different speeds - so DC power was much cheaper due to fuel and maintenance -
It might have been in the 50s the Bourbon Street power plant was sold -
I remember my grand father saying it had the original battery's and they were 60 yrs old and they were sold to a town that was powered by DC in south America also the oil engines and generators went with the battery's -
I remember my grandfather and uncles saying that plant had 80 yr battery's - that was determined by the acid strength - down there it doesn't get real cold so my guess is they used 1.175 strength acid - so those will cycle many thousands of times - in south Florida the old DC power plants used 1.150 acid strength but there was a 50 % loss in capacity -
The capacity loss is made up with larger cells - the standing voltage is 2 volts on the dime with 1.150 acid -
Those strength were used on marine marker signal lights on the water in the gulf of Mexico for decades - the have little self discharge -
With weak acid the positive plate hardly rots - if they sulfate they just hit them with a very high charge rate and it drives the sulfate out the negative plate and the hydrogen out the positive plate and it recombines to become sulfuric acid once again -
With a lead acid if it's not in service you can fully charge it then empty the acid out the cell and rinse it out 3 times and let it dry out and store it till it's needed -
The negative plate will oxidize some over the yrs - but it does not damage the plate - when you reactivate it by pouring the old acid back in the battery it will take longer to fully reactivate because of the lead oxide on the plate -
You might also have to add some stronger acid to raise the acid strength on a starting battery some of the acid strength is lost in activating a battery with its original acid -
Also if you look at the cells of new flooded battery's - then look at battery's that might be 7 yrs old and the red or positive plate still looks brand new - it's because the cell sulfated in the early state of service so the acid was weak and never destroyed the positive plate -
If you raise the cells to 2.80 to 2.90 volts for 5 minutes then charge them at 500ma to 1000ma for a few days then apply the higher voltage again -
Normally they will come back to 100% as long as the cells are good - use a hydrometer for reading gravity -
Discharge them with a fixed load to determine if there at 100% capacity -
Lead acid batterys are very versatile -

[philipbrown]

If I were to buy an EV I would rather buy one using lead-acid batteries. Even if these only had a range of 60 miles and took 12 hours to charge this would not be a problem for me as 99% of my journeys are less than this both ways. If I wanted to go further than this I would take the train and not have to worry about finding a charging station which would charge me up to 2.5x the normal price for electricity. Lead-acid batteries can be safely and economically recycled, there is no danger of these being banned from car parks and ferries due to fire risk and I would be able to sleep in my bed without having to worry about my car/garage/house catching fire whilst the batteries were charging.

[mikejones-vdfg]

I had a hunch older chemistries were still viable, even nihm i feel would be a better option then lithium if not for the size, especially for vehciles where low voltage doesnt really matter, it just means less power/speed, but you can still go. Nihm seem to last forever as i see my LED lights still lit 3 days after they've apparently gone out, very faintly, but still lit. A lithium battery would quit after 4 hours, they were brighter, more appealing keeping its higher voltage consistant, which is imprtant for LED lights, but not so much for vehicles, i think longevity matters more, you can keep going until you're able to get sun/electricty for more charge. With lithium your stuck at the cutofff, it dangerouse to go any further. But back to acid I just recently purchaces some lead acid for my 80w solar panel oh wait... lol i was one of thse guys that started typing immediately in, but not in rage! hah but in agreement to your fake stance, thats not cool man, of course you get people angry if you just lie.. but I thought you were onto something, im not so sure other battery chemistries are totally obsolete. But yeah the lead acid i have for my panels i woudl definately get lipo4 if not for the saftey, still not impressed wtih lipo4's safety either. Even after paying a good price im not so sure lead acid is cheaper, needing double the quantiy, and then less life cycles, lipo4 seems to have that taken care of with its longevity. But lithium for vehicles, seems like a risky solution i think but here we are, the ones risking it all for progress. :) What about salt water batteries?

[aleksandersats]

Perhaps do a charge cycle test till they are 10% of their original rated capacity. See which battery lasts longest, if your theory is true then I think this should prove it. More charge cycles = longer battery life = lower waste produced.

[dcmarios]

I built a electric Motocross with lead acid batteries.. total cost with the bike is 1500$ and if i put lithium it will cost 2000$ for only the battery..is just so expensive....

[tomsimon]

Cost for Li will surely go up !! All the material needed for them will increase also . Just consider Copper - in order to supply it in quantity MORE MINES are needed -- talk to environmentalist about that !! That's just ONE element needed !

[jkgiygigoiuholjojouihgiygf]

Great video again. Do a live stream of you driving it 400 miles to really shut them all up.