Myth #2 - Does shallowing your swing really work?

What is really meant by shallowing your swing? There is a difference between inclination and angle of attack. Understanding impact alignments is what is important to become the best golfer you can.

[swingsearcher]

Very good explanation about what "shallow" is and how it affects the swing and impact.
As far as I understand that shallowing move theory it isn't so much about angle of attack, but shall enable the golfer to increase clubhead speed, because the club comes more from behind. This shall encourage the golfer to open the chest more thru impact and stabilise the wrist action (lead wrist not so fast going into extension).

[TonyLuczak]

Golfers! I had the opportunity to meet Dr. Kwon at the 2012 World Scientific Congress of Golf. This is part of his biomechanical research of the golf swing. Unfortunately, due to my class schedule, we were not able to do our study of long drive golfers last year, but I hope to that one day. Shallowing of the golf club creates a greater helical trajectory making getting the golf club back to the ball more challenging. Then why do it! Reactionary Golf works to maximize a semi-planar motion t improve delivery into the functional swing plane (FSP) creating straighter golf shots.

"A spiral trajectory is essentially caused by a rotation around an axis and a translation along
the axis, which means that two different forces act on the clubhead simultaneously: the on-
plane force parallel to the FSP (such as the centripetal force) and the off-plane force
perpendicular to the FSP. This additional off-plane force makes a spiral swing mechanically
more complex than the semi-planar swing (with more room for errors/inconsistency), and
one may speculate that the semi-planar swing is the superior swing style between the two."

[TheCampsies]

Thanks for this one Tony, everyone has jumped on Shallow the Path, it's the red hot topic at the moment. I'll bet there is a lot of perfectly good golf swings getting tied in knots trying to achieve this.

[nielsstorm]

Hey Tony.
The way that Mr. Malaska teach the flattening on the downswing, is because his approach to the impact is so closed, that just before the hands reach the hips he is all ready released the club.
Therefore it makes sense for his club head speed.
He teaches the back towards the target, for longer time, just like Mr. Rose.
There is different ways for different players, i am personally, fan of your teaching. And for me it works better. Thanks allot and happy New year.

[ericfraser]

Finally, an honest broker!!! Only thru truth will we improve. Golf needs you! I'm a 2 hdcp.

[matthewsmall]

Great Video Tony. Keep up the great work

[migbgold]

Great video Tony!  Even though I'm an Ole Miss grad, I totally respect your teaching method and analysis.  This is the first I have heard of the functional swing plane -- but it looked to me like when the clubhead is at the top of backswing and the hands are initially dropping down, that shaft plane then matches to when the clubhead gets pivoted in front of the hands as it is directed into impact.  And what apparently a lot of current teachers are instructing is to have that shaft plane start down super shallow, which  (in order to hit the ball at all), requires a manipulation of the shaft plane as the clubhead pivots in front of the hands-- but the shaft plane changes to a much steeper angle relative to what it was as the club was initially being dropped on a (far too) shallow angle.     At least that is what I observed in your video -- and I totally get it!  You want to create a muscle memory that creates a matching shaft angle relative to the initial dropping of the hands and have that angle be the same as when the clubhead pivots in front of the hands as it gets delivered to the ball.  That is what I observed -- is that proper way to look at what you were describing in illustrating the "functional" swing plane (the red and white lines)?

[emncaity]

This is where I think Haney is also smart in insisting that there is a right plane that is neither too steep nor too flat, and the more you vary from it the more adjustments and inconsistency you'll be forced into, just as (it seems to me) TL is saying here.

I also wonder if this has something to do with the observable shift in plane from somewhere around waist-high or the set of the hands, which for good players with neutral actions is typically parallel (or nearly so) to the plane in the lower part of the arc (waist-high-to waist-high, approximately). This is a little technical, but it's clear that the mix of physical characteristics any given player has can make the space between those two parallel planes bigger or smaller. The bigger it is, the more the "drop" between upper and lower as the downswing progresses from beginning to impact, and that can cause some difficulties, although again, because of physical differences I'm not sure you can minimize that drop in some players the way you can in others. You can figure out a way around it by training a player to be more patient in transition, to keep the shoulders under control and responding instead of driving the action, or other such measures depending on the player.

(It's no good for _any_ player to shove the club around with the shoulders anyway. Even if you do keep the club pretty close to the right plane, which most players won't -- dominating with the shoulders tends to get a person instantly steep and outside on the downswing -- still, driving the downswing with the rotary action of the upper body and shoulders will tend to keep the club on that upper plane way too long, leading to one of those "gahh, have to go find the ball" rescue missions as the player approaches impact.)

But back to Tony's video here: If I'm hearing him right, part of what he's saying is that a "shallowing" motion at the top may be necessary if you're overly upright to begin with -- starting down on the right plane angle is better than starting down on a steep one -- but to just go out there and teach that "shallowing" every player needs to work on and do intentionally is just not right. For one thing, if you go too shallow (as Tony demonstrates in the vid), at some point the club has to find a way to get down to the ball. If that's happening late in the downswing, you'll have this sudden distortion in, or warping of, the plane that is really inefficient and inconsistent, not to mention being yet another way that force gets dissipated into the ground instead of into the back of the ball propelling it forward.

This is really due to the club's tendency to stay on the plane angle you start it swinging on. If your angle is right at the beginning of the downswing, it'll be slightly above the original shaft angle (or takeaway plane angle) because of the set of the hands and the need for the trailing elbow and arm to fold out of the way, but it'll try to stay on the angle unless you do something to alter or distort it.

It _is_ true, as another poster says here, that there's a natural shallowing effect for most players if you start from the ground up instead of from the shoulders down. Not an extreme move, just a natural one that's appropriate to the task.

It all starts with Tony's approach (see a list of the greatest teachers in the history of the game who've had the same approach) that it is the swinging of the arms that is the central fact or nature of the golf swing. A lot of people misinterpret that to mean that the arms should "lead" the downswing or that the body doesn't rotate and move in support, the lower body doesn't do its part, etc. Of course that's totally wrong. If you tell a normally athletic person to put a ball in his hand and throw it as far as he comfortably can, you'll see him step into the throw, turn his shoulders to enable a longer range of motion for the throw, "rotate" in his forward motion, etc., but it all starts with his intent to throw the ball with his arm and hand. In a golf swing, unless you tie a person in knots with all kinds of technical thoughts (and misconceptions) about each different part of the body, driving this and torquing that and "levering" with this other part, if instead you let a person feel the swinging of the arms and club, almost everybody will instinctively do something with the rest of the body to support and enable that swinging motion. So for most normally athletic players, it's a pretty natural thing to start the downswing with the lower body as a result of the intent to swing the arms with some degree of force (if you "drive" the club from the top down, you'll find out that you break down the swinging motion and end up with a thrusting or shoving motion, almost always steep, outside, and into the ground). When you start down or transition with at least something close to the right kind of lower-body action, the plane will shallow a little for most players.

That's different than making a conscious effort to get the club as flat as possible during the transition. The "shallowing" thing is one of those bits of advice that will work for a few people who happen to be too upright and for whom the right plane will feel very flat. So for that person, it'll be beneficial to feel "shallowing to flat" at the start of the downswing. Or it will for a little while. Chances are he'll end up overdoing it, in one of those "whole bottle of aspirin" things Harvey Penick used to talk about.

I'm not saying guys like Leadbetter were wrong in describing the shallowing action. It's there to some extent in the swings of most great players, and a lot of what Lead says is more detailed observation of the specifics of what goes on with great swings than a matter of advising you to do that particular thing to the point of overdoing it.

But anyway, less technically: If you get too shallow at the beginning of the downswing, you've lost the club's relationship with the ball and will have to go find it with the clubhead or you'll swing right across the top of the ball and miss it entirely. Mostly, finding it will require you to figure out how to get back down to it at the point your body and brain perceive that you're likely to miss it, which will leave you with a swing that looks flat and "shallowing" to the observer but will actually be too steep where it counts.

[stevenolmstead]

For me, tension in the right hand/forearm (right-handed golfer) has been the culprit in causing a too steep angle of attack. Most likely coming from the tendency to try to "hit" the ball. This tension delays the natural extension of the right arm in the downswing causing the steepness, . I am sure the desire to create "lag" in the swing can also lead to this unwanted tension.

[ImperfectGolfer]

I think that Tony is making a mistake trying to postulate that there is some causal connection between a clubshaft shallowing phenomenon in the early downswing between P4 and P6 and the clubhead angle of attack. The reason why some golfers shallow their clubshaft in the early-mid downswing has much more to do with the type of swing style they prefer (eg. Hardy one plane swing style rather than Hardy's two plane swing style) and also with the type of hand release action and arm release action that they prefer to use through impact.

I have noted that most long-drive competitors do not shallow their clubshaft during their early-mid downswing. They usually come straight down the TSP and they do not shallow their clubshaft to a shallower plane (elbow plane or even shalllower to the hand plane) between P6 and impact.

Here is an example - Jamie Sadlowski.


The red path traces his hand arc path. Note that his clubshaft does not shallow-out to below his hand arc path and his clubshaft is on the TSP at impact.

I think that swinging down the TSP without any clubshaft-shallowing action is very conducive to maximising clubhead speed at impact.


Finally, there are some golfers (eg. Hardy one-plane golfers like Hunter Mahan and Ben Hogan) who shallow their clubshaft even more during the early-mid downswing between P4 and P6, and they get their clubshaft down to the hand plane by P6.

Here is an example - Ben Hogan.


Note that Ben Hogan's clubshaft is on the hand plane between P6 and P7.5. That has the advantage of decreasing the amount of clubface roll per unit degree of clubhead travel during the release of PA#3 (which happens pre-impact), but it also has an additional benefit and it allows Ben Hogan to more efficiently perform a CP-arm release action combined with a no-roll hand release action through impact between P7 and P7.5 (as seen in those capture images). That combination of a "CP-arm release action + a no-roll hand release action" offers the golfer an ability to have the maximum control of the clubface through impact and the ability to have the lowest ROC through the immediate impact zone between P7 and P7.2, which is very good for accuracy.

Jeff.

[michaelb]

Its criminal that this man does not have more subscribers.

[motionalysisbyken]

Thank you for this great video. I really place this "shallowing is great' in the same basket with 'Stack and Tilt'. Both are Marketing BS !. Congratulations to you.

[paulwoolnough]

In my humble opinion, the golf swing can be way over thought.
My only swing thought i have now is throw club head at the ball like a under arm pitch.
I swing with right arm only, the left just goes for the ride.
I have found out my body just reacts as if i`m skimming a stone on the water sort of feel or hammering a nail into the back of the ball
i can absolutely smash it this way.
I have seen countless videos on the golf swing, but in the end i have always come back to the way i just described.

[ShallowedOutGolf]

Lead hip low, no bump and leaving the arms alone works for me.

[jboy]

I like your theory but and it’s a big but a picture is truly worth darn near all the words used. Demonstrate and choose easier colors for visibility!

[rexxengineering]

Part of this is the whole feel vs. real problem. Many people who come down steep fell like they're not. My local pro will tell me to come down on as flat a plane as possible. I feel like I'm completely horizontal into the ball. Then I see on video that I was very vertical. I am amazed how my feelings differ from what I see on video. So trying to feel the other extreme may have some value, even though it's not the correct objective. For me, the cure to steepness seems to be right hip depth. If I motor the downswing with my arms, while keep my right hip deep, it's almost impossible to be steep and hit the ball.

[simoncook]

Good video Tony but I think shallowing is what the vast majority of tour pros do. The difference is tour pros do it with their lower body rather than trying to manipulate the wrists and hands like most instructors are telling amateurs to do

[painless]

Always used to think 'shallowing the club' referred to angle of attack, made natural sense. Till recently when i though i had finally found out what shallowing meant/... and then i find you. urgh, golf is frustrating.

[WALTERMITTIE]

Does a more circular golf swing. i.e. steep shaft on the way back and shallow on the way down make the club swing faster because it uses the inertia of the club head better. Is this the real benefit of shallowing the shaft on the way down compared to the the backswing.

[rexxengineering]

Tony - you and Mark Crossfield have both proven the point that it is possible to swing on a flat plane and hit down on the ball or swing on an upright plane and hit level or even up on the ball. AOA seems to relate to ball position versus low point, not plane. The problems seem to come in when people swing back on one plane and then start down on a steeper plane than their backswing. They will miss the ball or hit way left from there. So if they try to shallow their downswing, what they are really doing is counteracting their tendency to steepen it. They just end up swinging on the same plane back and down. Actually swing down very shallow would not seem that helpful.