Calvinism Debate - Does Ephesians 1:4 Teach Unconditional Election?

This is a clip from Jordan's conversation with Mack where they had a friendly Calvinism debate. In this video Jordan talks about his view of Ephesians 1:4 (we were chosen in him before the foundation of the world) and explains why he doesn't think this passage teaches the "U" in TULIP - unconditional election.

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[natego]

my understanding is the keyword is "in Him". who is "in Christ" is predestined but who wants to be in Christ is free will.

[perttisuorsa]

God is very good at making the teachings of the Bible as difficult to understand as possible. The unclear teachings of the Bible are the main reason why there are so many sects within Christianity.

[Jebron_G]

The choosing could still have happened in eternity past, but not for specific individuals. Only those who meet the condition!
So the condition is specifically chosen before the foundation of the world ! Does that make sense?

[victortorres]

Can you provide a link to the whole debate unedited

[TKK]

Romans 16:7 / Greet Andronicus and Junia, my fellow Jews who have been in prison with me. They are outstanding among the apostles, and they were in Christ before I was

Paul doesn't seem to think that we were in Christ before the foundation of the world. If specific individuals are not in Christ before the foundation of the world, then how can specific individuals be chosen in Christ before the foundation of the world.

God chose (past tense) us in Christ (present tense) before the foundation of the world to be holy and blameless before Him (future tense). The verse says absolutely nothing about how one comes to be in Christ.

I think Colossians 1:22-23 ultimately clears up this entire Eph 1 debate / *yet He has now reconciled you in His body of flesh through death, in order to present you before Him holy and blameless and beyond reproach if indeed you continue in the faith firmly established and steadfast, and not shifting from the hope of the gospel that you have heard

In eerily similar language, Paul here notes the contingency of our future presentation as holy and blameless, namely that we continue in faith. But if salvation is a choice of God of specific individuals before the foundation of the world to be in Christ and one day holy and blameless, then it makes Paul's exhortation here a formality at best.

I think the clearest and best reading is that we are in Christ by faith, and if we continue, then God has chosen that we will be presented as holy and blameless before Him

[rhoderickromero]

I LOVE WORLD MISSION SOCIETY CHURCH OF GOD ...🥰🥰
FROM PHILLIPINES WE LOVE YOU ...🥰🥰

[joshennn]

Totally agree with everything you've said

[lawrencestanley]

At about 4:23, regarding "foreknowledge, " when we see in scripture that the word “foreknowledge” is used of God who is the one doing the “knowing, ” and when the object of His “knowing” is personal, such as a person, or a people, like Israel, (cf. 1 Peter 1:20, Romans 11:2, Amos 3:2), or Christians scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia (1 Peter 1:1-2), or those whom the Father has predestined (Romans 8:29), it has nothing to do with prescience, or, merely “knowing something beforehand, ” or, “formerly known, ” rather, it means that God has an intimate, personal relationship between Himself and the one who is known from before time began (Ephesians 1:4, 2 Timothy 1:9, Titus 1:2, Colossians 1:26, cf. John 17:24). We see the “intimate relationship” use of the word “know” (εγνω, γινωσκω) even from the very beginning of Scripture (Genesis 4:1).

“…when the verb “know” has a noun rather than a fact-clause as its object, it refers to a personal relationship, not a knowledge of information – this is the difference between, “knowing him, ” and “knowing that.” For example, consider the difference between “I know Bill, ” and “I know that Bill is forty-one years old.””
John M. Frame, “The Doctrine of God, ” pg. 72

[ReformedlyGuy]

This was brutal exegesis… clearly this doesn’t make sense. Now we’re jumping all over the new testament to explain some twilight zone theory about how men can choose in time and unite with Christ and are thus elected before the foundation of the earth…

I mean you get that sounds nuts.

[rrubio]

"The Secret of The LORD is with them that Fear Him and He will Shew them His Covenant" Psalm 25:14.. The Man of Flesh will continue on in confusion because he leans on his own understanding and listens to others who are confused as well. Calvin's and Armenianism are both true and false simultaneously. GOD must open your understanding to "Make You Free" (John 8:31-32) or you can never understand His Truth 📜🕯🤔

[lawrencestanley]

Being chosen is surely conditional on being "in Him, " but being "in Him" does not mean our belief prior to His choice or else you make something in God conditional upon something in man, and make salvation a result of works.

Since Ephesians 1:3 is Paul’s first use of the phrase “in Christ” in this passage, it sets the context for how the phrase will be used in later verses, and in verse 3, the phrase “in Christ” is used to describe the sphere into which the blessing of His chosen ones takes place, that is, based on who Christ is, and through His work of redemption, God has blessed us, the elect. Also, the words “in Him” is a very specific phrase used by Paul in Romans 5 and elsewhere to describe the Federal Headship of Christ over His people. That is, Christ represented those who were given to Him by the Father (John 6:44), that His work was specifically for them (cf. Romans 6:6, 8, Matthew 1:21), to bring them life (1 Corinthians 15:22). Therefore, in verse 4, The phrase “in Him” does not modify the word “us, ” as if to describe WHO God chose, as if God chose those who have already chosen Him, for that would make His act of choosing superfluous, but it instead modifies the word “chose, ” and it describes HOW God chose, and this is PRECISELY what Verse 5 says - “through Jesus Christ…” it speaks to the sphere, or the context in which God’s choosing took place. It is a reminder of the Federalism spoken of in Romans 5 whereby Christ is the representative of all of those who from eternity past were relationally foreknown, predestined, called, justified, and glorified (Romans 8:28-30). Simply stated, God’s choice of electing love in eternity past must be understood in terms of its relationship to Christ.

So what about the role of faith? This is also easy to answer from scripture. Actually, I will let Albert Martin respond from "The Faith of God's Elect, " he said:

“Although every Christian was chosen in Christ before the foundation of the world (Ephesians 1:4) and was also in Christ as our federal head and representative when He died and rose again (Romans 6:1–14; Colossians 2:12; 3:1–2), we do not enter into a saving union with Him until we believe (Romans 3:28, 5:1, John 20:31). According to 1 Corinthians 1:9, we are brought into this vital union with Christ when we are effectually called (cf. John 6:44) and embrace Christ by faith. Only then does 1 Corinthians 1:30 become true of us: “and because of him you are in Christ Jesus.”

Think of our union with Christ as a coin with two sides. From the divine side, our union with Christ is secured by the indwelling of the Holy Spirit who is the bond of that union (1 Corinthians 12:13; Ephesians 1:13–14). From the human side, the bond of our union with Christ is the Spirit-granted faith (Philippians 1:29, Acts 13:48) that embraces Him as He is presented to us in the gospel (cf. Acts 5:14; Romans 16:7b, Philippians 3:9).

The power (the Spirit) to believe comes from God; but the act (faith) is our act, though it is guaranteed by the Lord for His elect. Until we believe, we are outside of Christ, and we must believe to enjoy the full benefits of salvation that He has purchased for His elect.”

[makemoneynow]

Can you explain the word "appointed for eternal life" in Acts 13:48? "When the Gentiles heard this, they were glad and honored the word of the Lord; and all who were appointed for eternal life believed."

[angelamitchell]

I find it interesting that every debate or teaching I’ve seen correcting doctrinal issues, never point to the grammar as a guide to understand the scripture. Im not educated in greek grammar and have had very little schooling in English grammar, but I’ve been trying to teach my self both since encountering the doctrine of Calvinism. From what I understand, using the lexicon; is the word “IN” is a preposition. It isn’t a noun (person place or thing) neither is it nomative ( the subject ) or a verb (the action). Preposition is simply word expressing relationship to another word. For instance, If I said : “IN” 30 seconds, IN is not referring to a destination in that example. it is simply the preposition. What I see in the scripture is : God chose before the foundation of the earth for man to be HOLY. Referring back to his plan with adam and eve, who were made in his image [Holy] (Genesis1:27)After the fall, he chose isreal to be his HOLY people (leviticus 20:26) . After christ’s resurrection, He chose us [who are in christ] to be HOLY. The plan of God never changed. His plan and purpose will never be thwarted, which is to have a Holy covenanted people that will have dominion over his creation i.e earth and animal. I hope what I this makes sense, and correct please where I am wrong. This is just a short answer to what I see God revealing to me through scripture🙏🏼

P.S I just came across your page, and Im really enjoying the content thus far.
Godbless and keep up the good work.

[shepherd]

You're so close brother, but you've been saturated with calvinistic and armenian philosophy that you can't shake it. There's no need for pre knowledge, simply says, God ordained before the foundation of the earth everyone " in the ark" would be saved, not predestined who was in it, everyone " in Christ" recives the adoption and blessings, no calvinistic or armenian view needs be applied, it's so clear, go down to Ephesians 1:13, Paul then tells them how they got " in Christ" NOT before the foundation of the earth, but when they heard the Gospel and " believed " they were put " in Christ" so simple, just through out the stupid unneeded presuppositions and it right there in black and white