Let's Talk About Buying and Selling Vintage Guitars

A discussion of what it means to buy and sell vintage guitars - in light of the comments and feedback I received after posting what happened when Rumble Seat Music didn't think they needed to do anything about non-original parts that were sold as original.
I talk about - Guitar Flipping ! - The Grace or Approval Period - Do You Need To Be An Expert - What's That Reputable Stores Reputation Really Worth?

[DavidHBurkart]

I found this link through Casino Guitars... I think you bring up a great point, does the buyer bear responsibility to ensure the guitar received is what it was advertised?

My thought is basically, yes, however, regarding true vintage Guitars, if it was advertised as all original by the seller, especially after being questioned on the point of being all-original by the buyer, only to find out it was not, an effort on the part of the dealer to make it right ought to follow. Both the purpose and the problem with replica replacement parts is that they are to replicate originals, so it would be easy to not realize it... as apparently the dealer failed to recognize in this case as well.

This is unfortunate on the part of the dealer to respond with the manner they did.

[JasonHobbsGuitarist]

Good for you for standing up against crooks like this! Proper thing to do.
Let this be a lesson to everyone else out there not to buy from RS … totally loss respect for these guys after hearing this. ✌️

[christophersambuco]

Yeah, I'm really surprised (and a bid disappointed) at how so many people jumped to the defense of RS, and then went on an attack on you. Did the Gear Page give some kind of actual reason for your Ban? I guess Sometimes people need a "reason" to "stay honest" (like a lock on a door). When you posted the video with the recorded conversion, I noticed that the representative of the Store did NOT say "Hey Pal, we never said it was all completely original", but rather said "Of Course " that you could trust their reputation...Except "Oh, but you should have contacted us immediately" Time has No effect on the originality of those tuners. I really don't understand anyone defending that position.

[saltyscorpion]

This is a bunch of BS and I'm not surprised that other dealers are siding with Rumble Seat. There is no time limit on misrepresenting the product being sold. Whether they made an honest mistake or not, they made the mistake. It is their responsibility to fix it or put up a sign over the door that says "Buyer Beware" or "All Sales Final" to warn potential customers of their policies. The standup thing would have been to resolve your issue. You paid them 10K and they are balking at 50 dollars to satisfy a customer. I suspect that the hit to their reputation is going to cost them more than 45 dollars.

I thank you for doing what you did. We need people to expose the practices, both good and bad, of vendors. Now potential buyers have more information to help decide what businesses they want to do patronize and which ones they want to pass on.

[mv]

What a great video… the vintage guitar market is a very bizarre world.

This just goes to show that you can never really trust anyone selling vintage gear and to be aware of every single thing that can be used against you. It can definitely be more hassle than what it’s worth… and that is a massive shame. Terribly unfair

[Flamemanish]

You have to start a regular YouTube vintage guitar channel!!

[Airhead]

That's bogus. These guys sound like such snobs to me. I wouldn't even buy a pack of strings from these guys lol

[Detaileddesignsautospa]

I don't know all the details of the situation but I've heard your side via this video and another dealer appear to, IMHO, rationalize and minimize a poor choice that a dealer made. With that said, I tend to lean on the saying that "there's three sides to every story" as a lot of folks have a really hard time looking outside of their own perspective and being able to see that it's possible that there can be grey areas hidden inside a situation.

But my man, if what you're representing here is true as you say with no exaggerations (aside from a hilarious Blade Runner reference lol!), you've good reason to be well-irked. I can not imagine the mental gymnastics necessary to tell someone that just dropped $10k on gear to, essentially, pound sand because more than a month had elapsed. My only caveat to that would be if they have it established in print or terms/conditions that you agreed to prior to purchasing it.

First of all. Any reasoning that they are human, and thus imperfect, is not material to the situation. It's merely stating a universally accepted reality and is a bit of a strawman argument tactic. It's not an excuse *for them* as they're paid a premium for their experience and expertise. The premium paid is in place and sustainable as a business model for only one reason; peace of mind for a client. It's not presupposition of perfection or that paying a premium will eliminate the possibility that a concern/problem arises. It's an widely-held belief that if there's a problem, practical and reasonable steps will be taken by the professional to A) make the problem go away, or B) make the problem tolerable for the client via some measurable means.

Anyways, it's okay for the professional being paid to use "we're not perfect" as an excuse but the paying client can't? -I digress...

Aside from the established ethics of good business practices, how short sighted could they possibly be? They have an opportunity to take a client's concern, make it go away and then convert you to a CLIENT. FOR. LIFE. Instead, they now have all this negative publicity and have executed the possibility of them paying a future bill with your future business. This looks to me like a catastrophic failure on their side. Maybe they'll get wise and reconsider their choice? It's never too late to do the right thing for people.

Nepotism and professionals covering each other's butts(inside any given industry) is a real thing. Every single person here who has been in the working world for 5 or more years knows it. The sad reality is that A TON of professional buddies default to watching their own when sometimes the best thing that could happen is a pro call up his friend on the phone and tell him, "Hey man, I get it. We all make poor judgement calls once in a while and that by itself doesn't make you a bad business person/person. But I'm going to shoot straight with you. As your friend, I strongly recommend that you reconsider your current trajectory *on this one*. You should do the right thing not just because it will be bad for your reputation and cost you a whole lot more than the cost of fixing it...but also because it's the right thing to do for a person/client that paid you for X and you delivered Y. Dude, let me tell you about this one time I faced a similar situation...." -But no, that rarely happens because everyone wants to protect their little professional clique and they can't fathom that in business you'll sometimes lose some money due to error. Maybe this is mostly due to the incredible rise of modern egotism or narcissism/lacking empathy for other people?? I dunno exactly. But people can be just awful for no reason other than they love money more than they love other people.

I could seriously go on and on about this topic because I've seen parallels in my own industry and it makes me sick. At any rate...

IrishBog, good for you on speaking up despite the backlash. Your manner of covering the topic was really pleasant. I subscribed and hope to hear more stuff from you.

[uzuz]

they misrepresented their product to you prior to buying. It influenced your decision to buy. You are entitled to recourse in my opinion.

[gitarrenonkel]

I believe every (reputable vintage guitar) dealer should hold himself accountable for his offerings. If you can't buy from a dealer in good faith... where should his reputation come from? For the sake of treating every customer with equal value, he should always try to make things right, if he can't prove without a doubt that it wasn'T his fault.
Even as a private seller I take very good care of my reputation. If something is wrong, I try to figure it out and if it was my fault, even unknowingly, I will take back the item or make up for the loss. I've done that several times before.
Fun fact: Here in germany a seller is bound by law to the description he gave on a used item for 6 months, even in a private sale, if not explicitly excluded in the sales contract. If there is something wrong with the item sold, it's up to the seller to prove that it wasn't by the time he sold the item.

[LeonsFilm]

I'm late to the party on this comment. Recently seen an increasing number of non original guitars listed, especially on Reverb. There are too many landmines from flippers who buy something for cheap on craigslist purely for reselling - not saying that is your case. Those private sellers or small-time guys have no idea what they are buying/selling and always represent the guitar on the side of original. Buyer beware. That's why, common sense would say, buy from a big vintage dealer. You are paying a premium for their knowledge and reputation. Rumble seat should have absolutely been responsible, even a year after purchase. It's pretty embarrassing, but then again even dealers have mistakenly sold replicas as real vintage, knowingly or not, it's hard to tell.

[Syntaxterror]

my worst customer service experiences have ALWAYS been at the "most reputable" dealers. true for guitars and guns and lot of things. WHat happens is people are able to hide behind this rep and become less then reputable in reality but you retain all the attack dogs from previously

[tomeasley]

How can a dealer justify themselves as experts and charge a premium but yet expect you as a novice to spot fake parts within 24 hours? there are a TON of self proclaimed "experts" on the internet who buy and sell guitars- for a profit - are these guys flippers? if so what is wrong with that? they arnt banned from anything for it ? In buying and selling anything it should be sold as advertised or the seller should feel a responsibility to help correct it ...if it was an obvious flaw like broken or mismatched parts I could see them wanting to be notified as as soon as possible but with reproduced tuners that "their" experts didn't catch I would expect some wiggle room - its is yours to do with whatever you want after you buy it why should they or anyone else care

[maxmilian]

There’s business and then there’s doing the right thing. Unfortunately a final sale needs to have a proper end date. Nobody sells anything with an open ended return policy. You made a few mistakes whether on purpose or due to your personal limitations or situation. They should have done the right thing but they certainly don’t have an obligation to. Buyer needs to be responsible too, especially in a “used” maker. Respect

[BellTunnel]

This is ridiculous. There should be no statute of limitations on selling customers fake gear. It’s astonishing that, with everything at stake and considering Rumble Seat’s reputation is what distinguishes them from any other vintage dealer, they’d not fix this situation. You’ve done nothing wrong. The Gear Page admin will always side with manufacturers and dealers, and many of the users of the site are just looking for a fight, especially with people who can afford gear they cannot. It is a true shame that the record of this interaction on the Gear Page has been removed. I would not want to buy anything from Rumble Seat considering how they’ve treated you. Good luck to you.