Was Odo a Fascist Collaborator? - Star Trek | Renegade Cut

#startrek #trek #ds9

[CarelessWanderer]

Odo reminds me of a dear friend of mine from Kurdistan, who during Saddam's rule worked as a police officer in Northern Iraq, I met him in 2003 when we invaded. He was the first local friend I made, he helped me as a combat medic as a translator to assist various peoples both allied soldiers, iraqi nationalists, and kurds alike. However there were many days where we had our usual cup of tea and he would break down in tears over, well, everything. He admitted to helping be part of hurting his own people under Saddam, and for being passive with the treatment of many Iraqis. I never really knew what to say to him. I myself was a soldier from a foreign land who thought because I joined before 9/11 for college money, and that I choose to be a combat medic. I thought I was doing right, I thought I was helping, and I did when I could.

But as you said it is immaterial how I felt/feel or how my dear friend who is no longer with me felt.

Order without justice is just oppression.

[mikkosimonen]

This is what's great about DS9, there's conflict between the main characters and that means not all of them can be in the right.

[n.l.g.]

Dude, I love Odo, and this video fuckin' RULES. I think it sends a very important message: people who enable oppressive systems don't always seem like the bad guys. Renee's performance is legendary, lending Constable Capri Sun a lot of depth, humor, and charm. It's hard to believe that such a complex, empathetic guy--who is capable of such deep love and connection--is ultimately an enabler of evil, oppressive systems, but the fact is that he voluntarily and enthusiastically stood alongside the powers responsible for making his hot bajoran crush's life significantly worse. He's selfish, cruel, and unsympathetic to those who threaten his worldview. As a CHARACTER, he's fascinating and a joy to watch, but as a PERSON? He sucks, and I wish the writers had been a little more willing to make him contend with the pain he'd caused so many others.

But hey, my favorite is Garak, so it's not like being a nasty rat bastard has ever stopped me from enjoying a character before.

[nastropc]

"So René, this Mirror Universe episode is going to be lots of fun, all very different: Nana gets to play a kinky despot, Avery's a space pirate, and you'll be an authoritarian tool of a fascist state..."

[shayneoneill]

The idea that cops are not neutral mediators is actually baked into our justice system. The whole reason for a division between "criminal" law and "civil" law is that criminal law is inherently asymetrica, citizen vs the entire might of the state. Civil laws is essentually citizen vs citizen and the judge is there to work out which citizen is right. I'm happy to concede that an ideal judge is in in theory neutral, even in the case of criminal law to some extent (in that practical circumstances a lot of judges are often fairly critical of the cops), but cops are definately not.

[michaelbailey]

The Bajorans did paint Odo as a noble and honorable man though. He was seen an unflinchingly fair and honest, and was so respected they gladly allowed him to maintain his authority after the Cardassian’s withdrew.

I entirely agree with your assessment of him though. He was a collaborator and was definitely not a ‘good’ man, but rather a dispassionate, law-obsessed cop.

I’m just curious though as to how he gained his reputation with the Bajorans, if he was regularly turning them over to the Cardassian state for execution. That seems like something they wouldn’t forgive...

[markj]

"Odo violating the civil rights of DS9 residents" 🤣🤣🤣
Never thought of it like that. Definitely not wrong tho

[seanfrance]

tfw you realize that Quark was a better person than Odo.

[bluedotdinosaur]

This is a great reassessment of Odo. It does, however, need to be observed that: much of this was arguably intended by the writers of the series, particularly with Ron Moore's input. Odo's decisions and leanings all stem from an underlying desire for "order" and a form of unity that brings peace - regardless of the various costs incurred by that peace. Within the context of the completed story arc for Odo, it could be argued that it was Odo's nature as a changeling that drove all this. The changelings established an empire because they couldn't trust chaotic, "disordered" non-shapeshifters. Everything they do, is Odo's values taken to a logical conclusion and on a vast scale.

It's worth remembering that, while Odo may partially slot into the Star Trek archetype of the "outsider", the characters in DS9 were always intended to be far more grey and debatable than previous and contemporary Trek series. Odo, in a personal sense to his allies and friends, was likable - but that doesn't mean he was intended to be taken as innocent or good by the viewer. The very fact that Odo ended up becoming a gateway to the Founders trying to conquer and occupy the Federation indicates how grey his character was always intended to be. Remember: Odo never really disagreed with his people's desire for safety or the threat that "solids" might pose to them. He was largely on their side, and this wasn't due to inconsistent or hypocritical portrayal of his character.

[oldusernamewasbadlol]

I loved Kira and it really bugged me that she had less empathy for her own mother- who was basically forced into becoming a comfort woman - than a guy who pointed Cardassians towards the people they killed.

[tristanholderness]

Garak: all cops are bastards
Julian: even Odo?
Garak: especially Odo, my dear Julian

(also all secret police, including Garak)

[aidanmcguinness]

"Mr House will bring order to the New Vegas Strip"
(... Odo and Mr House are both René Murat Auberjonois)

[Xondar]

I loved the original title of this video: All Constables Are Boneless.

[juicy]

We learn Odo was with Doctor Mora Pol for 7 years, and before that was just sitting in a beaker on a shelf. The end of the war was roughly 10 years after him leaving Doctor Mora to become investigator on Terok Nor. The other changelings certainly view him as a child. I'm curious if he'd actually develop a more complex understanding of morality with more time or if that's the peak of Changeling moral complexity. The absence of conflict preferred over actual justice.

I'd have liked the writers to explore this more because it would have been complex to show the Founders being that way as a result of isolating themselves in the great link rather than just being predisposed to authoritarian rule and the orderly obedience of those under their rule as a matter of their nature.

[secretarias]

Odo's interaction with the female changeling and the link reminded me of teenagers being sexually manipulated by older predators. Despite appearing as an adult I wonder how much social experience Odo actually has after leaving the lab and becoming a member of society. There are no dates to even measure it.

Still, the Bajoran government should have never left someone with fascist regime experience on their resume remain as chief of security on their most important space station.

[Thelacker]

Uh yeah, can I get my authoritarian collaborator

B O N E L E S S

[SpaceGhost]

That's why DS9 is my favorite series. There was good and evil, sure. But also many shades of gray.

[Adam-nine]

The treaty with the Cardassians notwithstanding, I think the point of the Federation making a bad deal with the Dominion is a little too harsh. The reason they signed the deal in the first place was because they were faced with assaulting the extremely well fortified planet of Cardassia Prime, which might have ended with the destruction of a vast majority of the Federation Alliance ships still in the fight. Their peace treaty essentially allowed for them to capture the Founder (basically Hitler, and implied to be the one most actively involved in decision making) and push the Dominion back through the wormhole, where they can be more easily stopped from attacking again either through direct contact with the wormhole aliens or another minefield or something. It may have been a return to the pre-war status quo, but it also immediately ended the ongoing genocide of Cardassians (and the founders themselves who were being destroyed by the Section 31 virus), gave the Alpha Quadrant powers time to rebuild and prepare, and ultimately ended further bloodshed.

Plus, I would also add that the Dominion in the Gamma Quadrant would not have been sitting idly by while Cardassia Prime fell. The Federation, Klingons, Romulans, etc. never could have gotten concessions on the other side because ultimately the only Dominion territory they occupied was freshly acquired puppet states anyway, and to do anything else it would have required them to attack basically the entire Gamma Quadrant which had been consolidated through 10, 000 years of Dominion rule. Not exactly an easy task.

[NP-zthy]

Great actor though, Rene Auberjonois, RIP.

[curiousworld]

DS9 was the best Star Trek series, but in the years after it's initial run, I became more and more conflicted by Odo. He was a collaborator and the 'order guy'. The series portrayed Odo as sympathetic and I took it for granted that he was, until I didn't. Watching it now, there are several episodes when I just want to pour salt all over him or something.