How central is the issue of credobaptism vs. pedobaptism?

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[beanbag]

When he said "guard our table" my first thought was of a guy in a suit with an earpiece! Appreciate the back and forth, very good!

[brennanrjohn]

I would like to hear Dr. White and Dr Sinclair Ferguson debate these issues. I respect them both but the interaction would be very scholarly.

[oracleoftroy]

I greatly appreciate the first part concerning Federal Vision, and am relieved that I'm not the only one who feels that way about the debate. I remember hearing about it years ago and started looking into it. I read the Federal Vision joint statement, and while there were clauses I couldn't agree with, overall it seemed the cries of heresy were overblown. Then I tried to see what the counter-arguments were, and found that most were pretty ok with the joint statement (with similar concerns to mine), but their arguments centered around, "well Pete in this one book said this one line that implies salvation by works, " or "Duggie said this thing somewhere that implies this other thing." Meanwhile, when trying to examine the broader FV crowd, it seemed to me there was no consensus on any of those issues. It seems like FV just became this thing that everyone knows is heresy, but no one can plainly tell you why.

I also enjoyed the second half, even as a Presbyterian. From my perspective, that "consistency" White talked about seems like a forced consistency, where things the Bible teaches about baptism or communion are applied to both instead of keeping the Biblical distinction. Baptism is to be applied to the believer and their household; the promise is to them and their children and those who are far off, as Peter says, paralleling the Abrahamic covenant sign of circumcision. Before communion, we are to examine ourselves, as Paul teaches, and so it makes sense to guard communion where no command exists for baptism. It is only "inconsistent" if we force the requirements of one sacrament onto the other instead of keeping the Biblical distinctions.

Both systems will have false converts receiving Baptism, so I find it funny when Baptists make that point against Presbyterians, I'd think it is a far bigger problem for their system. But Peter likens baptism to the flood, so it seems natural to say that baptize unbelievers, no matter their age, bear the condemnation for their sins as those who drowned in the flood did. But baptized believers, no matter their age, are spared that condemnation as Noah was. Paul says we were buried in Baptism, so it seems to me that the unbeliever is buried in baptism unto his own condemnation, just as much as the believer is buried into Christ's death and so raised with Christ unto newness of life. Thus baptized unbelievers consistently fulfill the sign of their baptism by dying in sin and bearing the judgement of God as through the baptism of the flood, just as the believer fulfills baptism by dying in Christ unto the resurrection.

Lastly, I dearly love my reformed Baptist brothers. With so many Christians, it seems that they run away from scriptures that contradict their views and actively subvert the meaning of those texts. But with reformed Baptists, they are passionate to search and believe all of scriptures. They don't run from any text of scripture, so it is sometimes an enigma to me how they reach the conclusions they reach. But, while it is an important enough issue to warrant many heated debates, I always come away overjoyed by the clear love and passion for God they share, and so hold them in high regard as beloved brothers in Christ.

[mkshffr]

Having been credo only and now in the covenant baptism camp I think the issue matters but isn't a cause for radical division.

[tranetech]

It’s good for me to listen to James White when he is wrong as here. Reminds me he is just a man and our unity in spite of this point.

[josephchin]

To answer the caller’s question, the OT reference to Christ sustaining the Hebrews coming out of Egypt was typological. And, similar to the blood of bulls and goats, was not effective to obtain salvation or the forgiveness of sins.
After listening to the MacArthur-Sproul debate, the problem lies with the WCF, as Sproul defends it, is that the WCF conflates both promises (physical and spiritual) to Abraham as one and fails to recognize the duality of lines within the same promise. Paul explains this for us in Gal. 3 and 4. If the WCF didn’t have such a “flattened” view of the two promises to Abraham, they would see the typology of the physical covenant (i.e., circumcision) as a type of the spritiual covenant (circumcision of the heart by faith) or the anti-type, and that baptism is not the means of administering the abrahamic covenant to NT believers. Baptists do not say it is a mere difference in administration; baptists submit the covenant of grace is an entirely different covenant that was merely revealed to abraham that through the spritual line of the promise, that from him would come an eternal people, eternal land and an eternal king. (“by further steps, ...” see 2LBCF 7:3).

[MariusVanWoerden]

People have been circumcised that were never saved. It was a sign of the covenant. I started to read the Bible every day, study it and go to church during the week and twice on Sundays as much as I could. I tried to be better but after a year I felt more sinful and instead of better, worst. One night I could not sleep and I felt depressed I started to cry out to the Lord and said: “Lord God I deserve Hell but I cannot for eternity be separated from You.” I saw that one who dies without Christ will instantly be separated from our Creator. Even the atheist and Jews are held up by the God they do not believe in. That is why Christ at the Cross cried out: “My God My God Why have you forsaken me” That we would never be FORSAKEN from our Lord God. It was the deepest point of His suffering. Then these words came in my heart: “This is My beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.”
I saw that God The Father was well pleased with Jesus when He died at the cross and gave His Blood for many. I said Lord God If you are pleased with that scarifies at the Cross why Would I not be pleased with it. I saw that Christ was nailed to the Cross for my sins, and cried out: “My God My God why have You forsaken Me, so that I never will be forsaken by My Heavenly Father. Looking to Christ alone and not my righteousness. At that moment peace came into my heart. Peace With God that no one can understand except only through the Holy Spirit, I felt that the Blood of Christ had washed my sins away. I felt as if I was walking in Paradise without Sin. I was 17 at that time. I’m 82 now.
The Bible is the perfect Word of God, and is not only the world’s most widely sold but also most translated book in the world. Individual parts have been translated into 3, 394 languages, and the complete Bible into 694 languages. No other book not to mention ancient books are coming even close. That is supernatural. Those that read with faith have been given understanding of the Word of the Lord. Has believer baptism created falls believers?

[ByGracethroughFaithEph..]

In the old testament believers and their Children recieved a sign of Gods promises by physical circumcision and this is reiterated in Acts 2:38-39 believes and their Children receive a sign of Gods promise by Baptism and again are Gods Holy and covenant people (1Cor7:14)

[lindaw]

Is infant baptism adding/taking away from scripture? If yes, then the infant baptism folks are in danger, because of Revelations 22:18-19, Proverbs 30:5-6 and Mark :13.

[richard-fymu]

After fifteen years research, there is not an issue can we baptize infants, but who can be in the covenant and are there two administrations under a covenant of grace or is there a fundamental error in defining the covenant of grace as taught in classical federalism?

[CowboyPilot]

9:50 I've said this to many of my Presbyterian friends....gotta be both or neither. 😆

[kilgen]

The parable of the sower might direct our thoughts here. The seed on rocky soil and the seed where thorns grew up tell about people who responded to the gospel and might have qualified for baptism, but later fell away. Baptism is a promise for those who persevere.

[TheJpep]

Infant baptism isnt found in the Bible. Only believers baptism. Sola scriptura.

[Biblecia]

Going back to before Westminster, everything Calvin said about baptism was amazing…UNTIL he applied it wrongly to infants.

[riverjao]

Hebrews 6 and 10 make sense when they’re seen in light of the events of 70AD.

[rodneyspencer]

Outrageous! I normally love James White... To suggest that it is inconsistent to believe in paedobaptism and credocommunion is crazy.

[yellowblackbird]

Oh look, a Baptist talking about what Baptism does using zero didactic verses about Baptism. How predictable. 🙄

[SpotterVideo]

Based on Luke 3:16, and John 1:33, and Acts 11:15-16, the most important thing about the word "baptize" in the New Testament has nothing to do with water. The Holy Spirit is the master teacher promised to New Covenant believers in Jeremiah 31:34, and John 14:26, and found fulfilled in Ephesians 1:13, and 1 John 2:27. What is the one baptism of our faith found in the passage below?

Eph 4:1  I therefore, the prisoner of the Lord, beseech you that ye walk worthy of the vocation wherewith ye are called,  
Eph 4:2  With all lowliness and meekness, with longsuffering, forbearing one another in love; 
Eph 4:3  Endeavouring to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace. 
Eph 4:4  There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling; 
Eph 4:5  One Lord, one faith, one baptism,  

The term "New Covenant" is not found in the Westminster Confession of Faith, or in the 1689 LBCF. We are not come to Mount Sinai in Hebrews 12:18. We are come instead to the New Covenant of Mount Zion in Hebrews 12:22-24.

[jamessheffield]

Exodus 2:10 10And the child grew, and she brought him unto Pharaoh's daughter, and he became her son. And she called his name Moses: and she said, Because I drew him out of the water.

[colepriceguitar]

I’m a credobaptist who thinks baptism is necessary for salvation but The she of accountability doesn’t have a good answer. Im just going to pray for God’s mercy on this.