A Problem With HEMA Rapier Tournaments & Scoring Different Sword Types

A Problem With HEMA Rapier Tournaments & Scoring Different Sword Types

[SwordTune]

As concise as possible.
Is a 13 minute video.
Classic Matt Easton

[ArcaneCowboy]

Really helpful. Articulate concerns I had that I wasn't able to put a finger on.

[plasmathunderdx]

They should make a tournament where if you get killed you are disqualified from the tournament.

[austincummins]

If quickly tapping an opponent with a foil or smallsword (like Arya does in the clip you mentioned) is scored equally to a solid cut from something like a saber or BHBS then we might as well call it lightsaber scoring, because (let's be honest) the only weapon you could be wielding that can move that quickly yet deal such damage with light taps is indeed a freaking lightsaber. We can make this work though and we can even still call it 'hee-muh'- we just make the acronym HEGMA (Historical Extra-Galactic Martial Arts) and tell everyone the 'G' is silent. There- I fixed it, problem solved!
Seriously though, great video- I think anyone who is burdened with coming up with a scoring system that is intended to accurately reflect historical combat has an impossible task and is inevitably going to piss someone off and still encounter cases where the rules are being worked around or exploited (as other have mentioned).

[guilemaigre]

What you are talking about is actually important. This take it's basis in game theory.
For every set of rules, you find one (or a set of) optimal stable strategies (OSS) that end up winning more often than not.
Now of course the question should be "how do we set up our rules in order that the OSS end being reflecting what we would like it to be", or in our case, historical combat.
This is an important process to go through in order to have the game you really want.

[piniguin]

I totally agree you. HEMA should be historicaly accurate

[sleech]

We’ve been doing this for years. Thrust hits have a set point total. Cuts have a variable point total determined by blade profile, ie: point categories based on the width of the blade measured at half way between the cross and the point. .

[alLEDP]

I know this is an older video but I find it exciting that the HEMA competition scene is going through the organization and standardisation phase other Martial Arts or combat sports like Olympic fencing Karate or Judo or BJJ are going through. At the end of the day it's about comparing the fencing skill and not about "who has more money to buy the better sword" . I am a life long athlete and Martial Artist and am excited to see what the future brings for this wonderful Martial Art

[chaos_omega]

3:21 I generally prefer it if people give me a blow without cutting me...

[justsomeguy]

Your analysis of fast moving blades or slow moving ones and heavy blades or light ones vs. light and heavy/dense objects is spot on IMO, and explains a lot of what I had to intuit out manually every time with "X blade vs Y target." It's a good general rule/explanation.
I think HEMA scoring could award points 1-5 for how good each weapon is at each task, rate each for it's cut and thrust damage etc. If a katana and tulwar are great cutters, they count for 4 points or 5 on a cut but only 3 on a thrust, while rapiers thrust for 5 points and cut for 2 etc.

[taylor_green_]

I totally agree with your assesment of the problem and your proposed solution. In fact, I thought of the same solution before you said you'd done that

[nealsterling]

I absolutely agree with the mentioned point system (at 10:00).

[gwennblei]

Excellent and valid points as usual, it was a very interesting video to watch :)

[shrekas]

Great idea. Ive always thought that rapier tournaments turn into chaotic cutting brawls.

[warpix]

Been doing rapier since 2016 and helped marshal one tourney. So I'm not an expert in the matter, but here's my two cents.

I like the idea of rapier blades dictating how much a cut should be worth. From helping with a tourney though, I can imagine that would bring up its own difficulties when keeping track of it. The rapier cut that bothers me isn't necessarily from light blades, but light cuts. I've done freeplay against some people from SCA and their cuts always seem to be at a 45 degree or less.

Snap cuts from a rapier don't seem like they should count and can be frustrating to fight against. To put it in longsword terms, imagine an opponent hitting with their flat and insisting that it was a good cut. I'm not arguing that there needs to be force behind a cut to count in freeplay or tournaments, but there should at least be potential for a real cut happening. Whether that come from a rule dictating a minimum angle to hit or that there needs to by a scything action (which you can read about in Capo Ferro).

[Orgikan]

Thanks for the recent rapier videos <3

[creativenonconformit]

100% agree. I have been using dark wood bated rapier blades for 15 years. Switching to a Castile rapier simulator has been shockingly different. The cuts are considerably easier but I can't see how they would injure anywhere other than the most sensitive areas of the body. Whereas the bated rapier blade would easily injure a person with a cut even if they are more difficult to pull off.

[tiagodacruz]

I agree with what you said.

My old fencing master does have some XVIII century short swords, we call them espadins de corte, and they do have edges. But, like you said they would not cut as deeply as longswords or sabres.

However, soft tissue would be easy enough, so some points would be awarded. It would be hard to fight with a ripped muscle, an open artery or other soft tissue injuries... Even being tapped on the head can be unpleasant enough. Having blood getting in your eyes can't be represented in a tournament... But it would affect you performance. So... Point.

Here in Portugal at some point there where rules made by the king to limit the length of dueling rapiers. Again, even though they were thin at the tip, the edge could still cut through soft tissue; I mean... Even a sharp tips can do that let alone a sharp edge, even if with little mass. And we don't need to cut through bone to kill or seriously injure a person with a cut. Even superficial cut can be a nag, imagine a cut made purposefully with a sharp steal instrument aided by a fast moving very sharp steel object, backed with some bodyweight application.

It's always hard to fit the rules to what reality would be like because of all the variables. In HEMA you allow for afterblows within a larger time frame than in modern fencing. However, although those could happen, other times a mere counter to the weapon's arm could completely stop an stack and prevent any other, just to give an example.

There can hardly be overall concensus unless everyone recognizes no set of rules can absolutely a account for every variables. Even the periodic changing of rules will just result in different adaptations to the rules of the different games.

But that is what Is beautiful. We take techniques that were ment to kill and turn them into a game (or into an artistic expression when talking about artistic fencing and stage fighting in general). Neither is real nor should it be, for people died when it was real. They serve different valid purposes.

So... I believe you shouldn't fret too much about the pontuation...any set of rules will always reflect a determined set of possible situations in detriment of other that were also possible. Like in the case of attacks to the hand that would sometimes stop attacked and, although not usually fatal by themselves, could leave the opponent opened to a death stroke.

Anyway... Keep up the good work!
Love you videos. Even though I've been working with swords and other weapon's since I was there in 1983, and I work with modern, artistic and HEMA fencing as well as several Oriental martial arts, I still sometimes manage to learn something from you. 😀

Cheers!

[Poohze]

Soundly argued. Difficult to formalise in a way that will please all, of course, which is a great argument against a fixed set of rules for all tournaments. If one treats competition as another way of honing skill, rather than the goal of training, then that's all the better...

[OuroborosArmory]

The question for HEMA rapier tournament is are we scorning the fight based on a duel? Is this duel to a touch, or first blood, or death? And while some rapiers are designed to cut, the styles are more point focused, and thrust based.. as I am sure you know, the evolution of rapier is thinner and lighter, and less cut based, as. More and more of the military sword are retired for more lighter dueling blades.
So the heavier cutting blades were the military swords with more fashionable hilts on them. These in themselves are still “rapiers” but I believe they were not used for any of the more “dueling” styles we see in Fabris, or giangte. These swords, like the Sabre, were for military melee use, upgraded to be fashionable to wear.