Is Christian Nationalism Dangerous? A Conversation with Paul Miller and R.R. Reno

What is Christian Nationalism? How concerned should Americans be? Sean hosts a conversation between Dr. Paul Miller, author of The Religion of American Greatness: What's Wrong with Christian Nationalism and R.R. Reno, author of Return of the Strong Gods: Nationalism, Populism, and the Future of the West.

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[jt]

R. R. Reno is a nicy nice Christian Nationalism. My family is not religious, we have no problems, we are nice, well behaved, empathetic (nurse, nurse, teacher, all 4 married with kids, no divorce, etc).

I like Miller's ideas much more than Reno's. Some religious people are fine (usually the mildly religious) but as Hitchens says "Religion poisons everything." If you let it in, extremists and evil people will use it for their own purposes. What Reno suggests is like saying "I can take heroin occasionally, no problem." Even if it starts out as limited, sure as the sun rises in the east, it will be used by bad people for bad ends.

[knicolecurtis]

I've been careful to think of a response to this video for some time. I'm so grateful that I came across this quote by A.W. Tozer this week.
He says it better than I could have:



"One thing must be kept in mind: We Christians are Christians first and everything else after that. Our first allegiance is to the kingdom of God. Our citizenship is in heaven. We are grateful for political freedom. We thank God for democracy as a way of life. But we never forget that we are sons of God and citizens of another city whose builder and maker is God. For this reason, we must not identify the gospel with any political system or make Christianity to be synonymous with any form of government, however noble. Christ stands alone, above and outside of every ideology devised by man. He does not join any of our parties or take sides with any of our great men except as they may come over on His side and try to follow Him in righteousness and true holiness. Then He is for them, but only as individuals, never as leaders of some political faction. The true Christian will be loyal to his country and obedient to those in authority, but he will never fall into the error of confusing his own national culture with Christianity. Christianity is bigger than any country, loftier than any civilization, broader than any human ideology." (A.W. Tozer, 1897-1963, taken from The Next Chapter After the Last: For the Child of God, the Best is Yet to Come, chapter 13)


If we do not heed Tozer's advice, we are in danger of the deception that the disciples almost fell into and to the deception Jesus Christ warned against. To put it simply: clay (church) and iron (state) should not mix. For this is a slippery slope. One needs only to look at the Dark Ages to see the persecution that occurs when the Church joins with the State to enforce a "Christian" morality. . .


I humbly submit that our failure as God's church in the US is not that we lack political engagement. Our failure is that we would look at the darkness around us and turn to the State to shine an "institutional light" when our Master wants each of us to "be a light" to the individuals around us. For it is the individual heart that God longs to win, not an election.


The difference we should be making is not a political one, but a spiritual one.


I'll continue to be edified by much of the content on this channel.


Stay vigilant. Be blessed!

[PatrickThreewit]

Why should I be forced to be a Christian when I do not believe in a god? This control is one of the reason why I stopped being a Christian after 40 years.

[chrischristensen]

Thoughtful, unapologetic, civil and very relevant. Bringing these scholars to a larger audience is fantastic!

[ryancaldwell]

I don’t even think a state imposed religiosity, a generic prayer to a “creator.” That assumes all parents believe in a creator and want it taught to their children in school. No matter how mild it may be, it’s still religiosity and unconstitutional for the state to impose it.

[nathancjarrett]

39:02 - 'I don't advocate for state-enforced secularism...' Dr. Miller may not personally want to see state-enforced secularism, but that is exactly where his policy preferences will direct us. I used to believe that the state could remain neutral on world-view issues. Now I realize that the state catechizes society. You can have a state that promotes good values, or a state that promotes bad ones. You will not have a state that does neither.

[TheLookingGlassAU]

Sean, you are a very disciplined and fair moderator. Thankyou, and well done.

[darrenplies]

I preface the argument by saying, this does not apply to everyone but,
“ Turn off the conservative cable news and get back to your calling”

[yankeegonesouth]

This was such a great dialogue. It is refreshing to hear people speak rather than just interact with words for or against them on screen.

[johnslagboom]

However, apart from a God sent revival, any attempt to impose a Judeo/Christian ethic will indeed lead to the toxic effects that Dr. Miller is concerned about.

[kennethpeters]

I think Mr. Reno was somewhat disingenuous when he said he was not exposed to Christian nationalism somewhere around 47:48. This man seems to be an intelligent Christian Nationalist be that good or bad I'll need more time to consider.

[Eyesofmars]

He must have grown up in a Christian home. As someone who wasn’t raised in a Christian home, those signs in the culture are what helped me come to faith. So he’s wrong they do have an effect on people. People raised in Christian homes take a lot for granted.

[qjsharing]

Part of the problem is that the New Covenant was entirely written while there were foreign powers in control. I just don't think there's much written about how to control things when you're in charge. And when it comes to wielding power, distinguishing the Spirit from my own internal biases is really, really difficult.

We're only forgiven what we forgive. Maintaining political power while maintaining the Golden Rule is hard, very hard. And then justifying it to ourselves is a temptation that's extremely dangerous. "you could have trust me" God might say "but you didn't and thought I wanted you to rule".

[rdickerson]

Thank you - all three! Was refreshing to witness two different perspectives and in a calm manner.

[gregloveland]

Thank you Sean for being a moderator who allows his guests to talk and doesn’t interrupt them.

[minaocolisan]

Dr. Miller, you have the right ideas about keeping Christianity out of the state.

[Dana-pqke]

I GREW UP WITH CHRISTIANS ON A FARM.

They were excessively loving, tolerant and preached grace and forgiveness. They eschewed hate, embraced education. They taught me to love art and now I'm a visual artist and classical pianist.

I studied nursing and work in urban minneapolis as an activist for the poor and sick who need my advocacy.

F em. Terrible people.

[TheLookingGlassAU]

I know im writing a lot - im thinking about this.
This quote comes to mind by John Stuart Mill
"He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them. But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion"

If we are not sure EXACTLY what Christian Nationalism is, then how can we judge it as good or bad?

[Craggyo]

McDowell always leads a respectful and constructive debate. Thanks to the equanimity of both guests.

I’ve seen in aspects of US Christianity a conflation of the constitution with the Bible, and the church with the country.

There is an assumption that a country must be free to express faith. That isn’t a guarantee nor necessary to do God’s will or spread the Gospel. Just ask Christians in China or Soviet Russia.

God’s church isn’t made by human hands.

[CubeBase]

Miller has done an excellent job defending the strength of Christian faith without the need for state sponsorship. We do not need nationalistic defense or placement for Christ to be relevant to our culture. As he says in many cases, nationalistic uplifting of Christ is often a false representation and harmful to our faith and our nation overall.