Maggie Haberman on What an Unleashed Trump Might Do

This week I published an audio essay about what I think is unique about Donald Trump as a personality and political figure and the dangers he poses if he gets a second term in the White House. But I wanted to go deeper on this topic with someone who knows him much better than I do.

Maggie Haberman is a senior political correspondent for The New York Times and has traced his evolution over the decades in her 2022 book, “Confidence Man: The Making of Donald Trump and the Breaking of America.”

In this conversation, we discuss what Haberman agreed and disagreed with in my essay, the forces that shaped Trump’s ideas of politics and power as a real estate developer in New York City, what she thinks he wants from a second term (including his desire for revenge), how his inner circle has changed since his time in office, what he might do if he loses and more.

Note: This conversation was taped before Trump’s former chief of staff John Kelly went on the record saying that Trump met the definition of a fascist and that the former president had told him, “You know, Hitler did some good things, too.”

00:00 Introduction
1:35 Signs of Trump's disinhibition and aging
6:22 Trump's rise in the GOP
8:38 How New York politics influenced Trump
16:15 What Trump wants
21:12 The Apprentice and the Presidency
24:00 Taking Trump at his word
27:43 Trump's inner circle
36:28 Trump and the Republican Party
43:04 Policy priorities
44:50 Revenge / Lawfare
48:00 Is he slowing down?
51:50 Election scenarios
58:53 Book Recommendations

This episode of “The Ezra Klein Show” is produced by Annie Galvin. Fact-checking by Michelle Harris with Kate Sinclair. Our senior engineer is Jeff Geld, with additional mixing by Aman Sahota. Our supervising editor is Claire Gordon. The show’s production team also includes Rollin Hu, Elias Isquith and Kristin Lin. Original music by Isaac Jones. Audience strategy by Kristina Samulewski and Shannon Busta. The executive producer of New York Times Opinion Audio is Annie Rose Strasser. Special thanks to Jack McCordick.

[marthawhite]

Some of the commenters have said, 'hey! why are these two reporters so calm in the face of such horrendous insanity!?' But I think, that knowing as much as she does and having it known it for years, it is just a very quiet acceptance of the reality we are facing. Yes, the rest of us are aghast at Trump's lunacy, but with so much exposure and in depth experience with her subject - she shows her depth of understanding by being so calm and thoughtful. That's her job as a journalist, detached observation.

Now, the rest of us - we should be mad as hell and do something about it.

[kmlund]

Having such a calm talk about the dangers of Trump is spine chilling. I am hoping we have some honest courageous people that stand up for democratic values and the will of the people. If taking away women’s rights is a preview of things to some I pray we can remain a free country.

[ZOELIFE]

“When fascism comes to America, it will be wrapped in the flag and carrying a cross” Sinclair Lewis

[snowmonster]

Maggie referred to his "so called cognitive decline" in a way that made it pretty clear that she just doesn't buy it because he hasn't changed, he's just more like himself. I understand why she said that, but she's not understanding the situation. For anyone who agrees with Maggie, I want to explain that this is exactly what cognitive decline looks like. The loss of inhibition that they decribe is a manifestaion of his cognitive decline. The process of maturation is fundamentally one of inhibiting behaviors that aren't helpful or appropriate. The loosening of self controls in someone of Trump's age is a very ominous symptom.

[wiseoldfool]

Someone that unhinged should never be unleashed.

[gene]

Eliminating the Affordable Care Act, would be devastating for the elderly and the poor.

[denisehall]

60 minutes of telling the audience that Trump as president in 2024 will be a shit show.

[r.f.pennington]

Interesting and informative...BUT why do I feel like I need to take a shower after watching this?!

[NewYorkerPEACE]

Media needs to call trump out and stop pussy footing around how fkkin dangerous he is. corporate media is always failing the American people.

[mikevanderheiden]

What would trump do? Probably give Maggie another book about irresponsible hindsight.

[susancooper]

I am profoundly disappointed in both of these journalists and by extension the NY Times. The unwillingness to confront Trump's lies, threats of violence and refusal to abide by our governing principles and our Constitution is indefensible. This feels like two people who have the ability to pull a fire alarm calmly discussing a raging fire sweeping through a building in front of them. I am a decades long reader of the Times but recent coverage, in particular a nonsensical "both sidesism" has turned me away and I do not think I am alone. Trump and MAGA are a menace and should be clearly and un equivocally identified as such.

[abbiewhitehead]

There are several Giant signs in my area that read "Trump 2024 The Revenge Tour". I didn't know being president was about revenge. These signs scare me.

[NPgirl]

Always enjoy the NYT podcasts. Always enjoy listening to Maggie. But I will have to stop consuming news for the next 4 years for my own sanity. 😫

[grambebe]

You are not being real about his cognitive decline. It has been noted by many many psychiatrists and you are dismissing a most dangerous factor in this election. This is not right!

[mjscafidi]

I’ve never heard someone describe so many ways of LYING without ever calling it that.

[linneafolger]

“Filter is gone”. I am reminded of when my doc, talking to me about my dad’s aging, noted that I should be prepared for his prefrontal cortex not working as well. This means loss of udgement, executive function, filter etc.

[Mustardonmyjeans]

Maggie Haberman has done more than anyone to normalise Trump. We owe this nightmare to her and her fellow journalists who enabled the monster.

[danielbliss]

Still sane-washing I see, and as for the information about his failings, why did we not get that in 2015, rather than multiple stories every day about an email server that turned out to be nothing more than mild paranoia on the part of the Democratic candidate about data protection. The "What Trump Wants?" segment should have been front and center of the Times coverage in 2015, and these people easily had the background to cover it successfully, but they did not.

[hirokou.]

I just can't believe that these people who know Trump so well speak so quietly and intelligently and watch Trump become President. This is so unreal.

[bernardzsikla]

It is always interesting when rational people in rational terms, attempt to explain the irrational behavior of Trump.