Matters of Life and Death: Sheldrake-Vernon Dialogue 67

Covid has brought the reality of death into the centre of our lives, but what can we learn about death in response? This episode of the Sheldrake-Vernon Dialogues, with Rupert Sheldrake and Mark Vernon, is prompted by a sense that part of the anxiety arising from the pandemic is living in a culture that has forgotten how to know death in life. Rupert outlines some recent work on the role of death in plant life, and how that is not only of biological interest but can be spiritually resourcing. They discuss how wisdom traditions don’t dissolve death but understand it as a process that leads to more life, and therefore to be embraced and undergone. Both reflect on personal experiences of death and dying as well, in what they hope is a helpful as well as interesting conversation.

Dr Rupert Sheldrake, PhD, is a biologist and author best known for his hypothesis of morphic resonance. At Cambridge University he worked in developmental biology as a Fellow of Clare College. He was Principal Plant Physiologist at the International Crops Research Institute for the Semi-Arid Tropics and From 2005 to 2010 was Director of the Perrott-Warrick project, Cambridge.

Rupert's latest book is...
The Science Delusion: 2020 Edition

Dr Mark Vernon is a writer and psychotherapist. He contributes to programmes on the radio, writes and reviews for newspapers and magazines, gives talks and podcasts. His books have covered themes including friendship and God, ancient Greek philosophy and wellbeing. His new book, out August 2019, is "A Secret History of Christianity: Jesus, the Last Inkling and the Evolution of Consciousness". He has a PhD in ancient Greek philosophy, and other degrees in physics and in theology, and works as a psychotherapist in private practice. He used to be an Anglican priest.

Mark's latest book is...
A Secret History of Christianity: Jesus, the Last Inkling, and the Evolution of Consciousness

[MEFbeelove]

Listening to this I am reminded of stories of bees leaving the hive to attend the funeral of the beekeeper who tended their colony.

[TheAcademicOracle]

I grew up on a farm, and my sister and I had a pony, her pony (Ladybug) was much older than my pony (Pepper), and when Ladybug's time to pass came, Pepper went to the furthest part of the pasture, closest to where we had buried Ladybug and stopped eating/drinking or even getting up. He whinnied and whined for days on and off, and eventually died a week later too. They are buried together in a pasture now.

[carobresler]

I just learn from you....but the most wonderful thing (to me) is how you always consider animals and all living beings in what you say.
They need all the compassion they can get❤

[ElliEberhard]

Thank you (...and Peter Fenwick...) so much! Your work is so important! Greetings from Germany, Berlin :)

[TheHajah]

I was engaged just before watching this dialogue, in a conversation on FaceBook around a post saying :-‘The great question: How to organize a post- apocalyptic society in spite of a coming apocalypse?’. Delving deeply into the transformation that happens in cycles & also considering the idea that the Future affects the present as much as the past, although differently & considering JGBennett’s wisdom on the relationship of Function, Being & Will x Time, Eternity & Hyparxis…… & of course Morphic Resonance. This discussion is so relevant to the discussion around pandemics, climate change & World situation. Thank you. Then taking, as a point of contemplation, what might be called the dying of our planet or at least our lives as we would like to hang on to them, there was a feeling of sitting with a loved one who is dying, with the awareness of the privilege of companioning them through a great initiation…. Thank you 🙏

[luke]

“We are all but sad guests on the dark earth.”
- William S Burroughs

[creatingpassions]

Much Gratitude and Appreciation Magical Miracles Beautiful Divine Beings ✨

[ladyfaye]

When humanity loses its fear of death, it will finally live in peace, with true compassion then able to take its place at the pinnacle of values, bringing peace to the living.

[karenschulz]

I work as a carer-for-the-dying and soo love this conversation. We have to live with death, yes, also our children, may it be humans or pets, we need to experience dead bodies to learn about death not being the worst experience in life!
And I have experienced most deaths on moon days, new moon, full moon....

[rogerheeleybarnes]

( the deathless ) " ...it's an experiential thing - it's about seeing and feeling..." Exactly Mark, well said x x

[anabelarozwadowska]

Oh my, the host does not stop to breathe, for a moment I thought he was the one being interviewd. Rupert Sheldrake was the drawcard for me to be here listening to this, however it seems otherwise.

[sebastianverney]

The irrepressible Mark Vernon is not a good speaker, but it's still very much worth listening to for Rupert Sheldrake, especially the fascinating part from 25.45 min on.

[pBinx-bdxg]

Old blues song: Everybody wants to go to heaven, but nobody wants to die

[Nikos]

I was wondering if the idea of a virus contradicts with the idea of a morphic resonance? Because the dogmatic belief that we have about viruses is based upon the materialistic transmission of information. Thank you.

[voteutah]

A friend of mine has a practical and funny mother, who loved Duncan Donuts, and made it clear that my friend's inheritance would be Mom's ashes in a bag from Duncan Donuts. Good example, imho.

[carobresler]

Dear mr.sheldrake.
How can one contact you?
Would very much like to write to you about something extraordinary that has happened to me related to parallel universes...and do not know who to share with.

[rutej.]

Resorting to the plant metaphor, what if life is, for better or worse, just the byproduct of someone's death? It pretty much feels like a senseless, neverending circle. I think the actual meaning of life is best related to critically contributing to a world where no one needs to be born, grow up, reproduce and die ever again.

[melparadise]

Thanks for sharing this talk, I think that it's an important reminder of the role death plays in our lives. A few years ago I almost died, recovery was very alienating because people don't want to face these kinds of things. Shit happens and we really ought to be there for each other. I got somewhat better and started growing plants. At the end of the day, we're all just mushroom food anyways. 🙃🍄...goddamn the american healthcare system is so f'd up...

[jmurphy]

"We are here to go!" - Brion Gysin

[jimharrop]

Hi, beautiful that yesterday afternoon I was just thinking about how the biggest, unspoken implication of the pandemic is death, then to come and see it was being talked about here, too.

I have a thought I'd like to hear people's opinion on- that the Western world's unhealthy relationship with death may originate from The Black Death in 14th century Western Europe and the rapid regrowth and discovery that followed immediately after it. The Medical Renaissance began in the early 15th century, during which time saw Rene Descartes and what was essentially the birth of the scientific method. From this point onwards, we saw the continued works of science head towards separation from essentialist philosophy in effort to disassociate with intrinsic meaning in the matter of our existence in an attempt to exalt above it and above God following a long and bitter judgement that potentially resulted in some 60 percent of the European population dead.

In the same way people say that wars drive technological advancement, I see it that the trauma of the bubonic plague brought about revolutionary advancement in medicinal technologies (which continue to this day) but in turn, used the scientific method to revile the image of death in refute to amend the traumas it brought about. The anthropomorphic image of death being depicted as a skeleton with a scythe originated from the Black Death and is still very powerful iconography in Western society today, also the black funeral clothes, veils and morbid solemnity appear to be deeply reminiscent of similar imagery.
I realise it's probably quite uncouth to analyse hundreds of years of human civilisation using psychology of the individual, but just to reinforce it- as with any personal issue, we know that problems only persist the longer we choose to ignore them. It's no wonder we still see ourselves blindly revering the work of science since it continues to prove effective in briefly abating the inevitability of death, despite it being unable to answer the most important question of why it is we should live in the first place.
Science & medicine are, of course, important tools in our arsenal as humans, but we can only move toward a more balanced existence if we address the elephant in the room- that death does, in fact, exist and that we cannot defeat it and even if we can, there is no reason that we should. It isn't the 1300s anymore, we aren't wallowing in filth, darkness and pain for the duration of our short lives- for the most part, in the West, many people are fortunate enough to not suffer through a short existence and as such, we have all the reason to treat death as a celebration of life and not the absence of it.
Thanks for listening to my Ted Talk.