Plato vs. Machiavelli on Political Philosophy

In this lecture series, Dr. Peter Kreeft examines key ideas in philosophy by comparing and contrasting two representative philosophers in each episode.

In lecture 2, Dr. Kreeft examines the importance of finding and defining the fundamental differences between Plato—whose logic is inductive, deductive, and seductive–and Machiavelli —who, 2,000 years after Plato, set out a radical alternative to Plato’s ideal city and ruler.

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[shadowfax]

I am obsessed with these lectures after having been an undergraduate theology student for a few years. It also supplements my Jesuit education from high school. I can't find anything like this on youtube or anywhere else. I am so thankful for Word on Fire Institute, as a member!! Thank you Dr. Peter Kreeft!!!!

[apollosgadfly]

The phrase that converted me to philosophy completely was Plato’s “Phaedo”, in which Socrates says, “The study of philosophy is preparation for death and dying.” It struck me so strongly that I changed my whole major just because of it. I have never regretted it.

[gsoifml]

One semester of business ethics at my state university did not provide a single paragraphs worth of wisdom that was offered by this man's lecture. What an amazing presentation.

[Crashing_CSS]

Never have I ever felt and been in peace after a lecture. I dont know but Prof Kreeft's peaceful and spiritual energy just transcended through this youtube barrier and put me in this zen mood---- grateful for his existence. He makes it easy.

[TylerMcConnell]

“Advertising is the world’s oldest profession. It was invented in the Garden of Eden by Machiavelli’s father.” 😂 Fantastic lecture, Doctor. Thank you! ❤

[taywilA]

Very intellectually stimulating. Dr Kreeft can convey complex topics in very a understandable and engaging way.

[leoteng]

I’m also in awe of these lectures. When Dr Kreeft makes profound comparison between these philosophers and with the injection of Christ, it illuminated our understanding further. Thank you Dr Kreeft 🙏🏼

[lzdmlky]

What an inspiring scholar and philosopher! I wish I had had the chance to study with Prof. Kreeft in my youth. Thank you for posting these wonderful lectures. You bring both clarity and comfort to corners you cannot possibly imagine. 💝

[iqgustavo]

🎯 Key Takeaways for quick navigation:

00:28 📜 Plato's philosophy is foundational; he asked significant questions and provided classic answers.
01:23 📚 Plato's dialogues are engaging and psychologically profound, teaching self-knowledge and logical reasoning.
02:32 🏛️ "The Republic" is a profound work covering justice, ethics, politics, human nature, and metaphysics.
03:42 📚 Plato's writings, including "The Republic, " can have transformative impacts on readers' lives.
05:47 🌍 Comparing Plato's "The Republic" and Machiavelli's "The Prince" is like comparing different worlds.
07:55 🧠 Plato's anthropology explains the three powers of the soul: reason, spirited will, and desires.
09:23 🏛️ Plato's just state has three classes: rulers with wisdom, enforcers with courage, and abiders with moderation.
11:03 🎓 Plato's Academy established liberal arts education that aimed for knowledge and not just career success.
12:26 👑 Plato favored aristocracy by the wise, while Machiavelli introduced practical political pragmatism.
14:21 🌌 Plato's theory of Forms (Ideas) asserts objective realities as standards, impacting ethics, epistemology, and metaphysics.
16:56 🕊️ The divine presence and Christ's wisdom resonate within Plato's metaphysical framework.
18:45 🌍 The stark contrast between Plato's "The Republic" and Machiavelli's "The Prince" defines their philosophical approaches.
21:13 👥 Machiavelli's political philosophy disregards innate moral virtue, emphasizing power, materialism, and nominalism.
23:48 📜 Machiavelli's focus on practical success over ethics marked the foundation of modern political philosophy.
25:14 🏆 Unlike Plato, Machiavelli considers success as the criterion for goodness and morality in societies.
26:53 🌐 Machiavelli's principles apply to both individual rulers and broader political entities, impacting democracy as well.
27:20 📜 Machiavelli's concept of success is based on efficient causality and force, not moral ideals or final causality.
28:02 💡 Machiavelli's image of success involves conquering fortune through force, similar to Francis Bacon's idea of man's conquest of nature.
29:11 🌍 Machiavelli and Bacon use strikingly similar images of hitting and beating in their descriptions of achieving success through applied science and force.
30:06 🤔 Modern philosophy has moved away from final and formal causes, focusing on material and efficient causes due to their compatibility with science.
31:16 🎭 Machiavelli contrasts Plato's idealism by emphasizing practicality and reality in political philosophy.
32:11 🌟 Machiavelli's principle of foresight and mental power over physical power is consistent with ancient wisdom found in other traditions.
33:47 💔 Machiavelli's argument that it's better to be feared than loved is based on the idea of controlling fear as opposed to relying on unpredictable love.
34:56 🎭 Machiavelli advises rulers to prioritize appearances over reality, highlighting the importance of controlled perception.
35:39 💡 Machiavelli's cynicism about ruling and virtue contrasts with Plato's emphasis on wisdom and virtue.
36:47 🕊️ Plato's wisdom and virtue are exemplified by Socrates, whose legacy transcends death, while Machiavelli's examples of success ended in misery.
37:31 🌓 Plato's realism encompasses both good and evil, while Machiavelli's philosophy lacks the full understanding of human nature.
38:14 📚 Plato's notion that goodness triumphs over evil resonates in works like "The Lord of the Rings, " highlighting the profitability of righteousness.

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[joelmontero]

I love these lectures man Dr. Kreeft is just amazing, God bless him, you can feel his true love for philosophy

[mathiusq]

Peter Kreeft is a treasure for the whole world

[jaybailleaux]

I find it amazing how people can be very successful and happy with no knowledge of philosophy. I do believe philosophy would help everyone. It should be taught in public schools . It would need to be worded and simplified at grade school level.

[dachurchofeppie]

About 5 years ago i was stating that philosophy was more important than science to my friend’s quizzical looks.
Happy to see it getting some traction. Lord knows we need some wisdom.

[anniebanderet]

Love his description of the Logos. Another stellar lecture!!!

[TheMustachioedJames]

30:17 I like the comparison of Machiavelli's push from behind and below to Plato's pull from the Logos. One thing, though: The push from behind must come from the past/is backward-looking. In Machiavelli's view, we move forward not because we are attracted by the Good, but because we are harried by either our betters or our own notions and harrying of other men. He thinks the forward-looking pull to the Logos is imaginary. Well, of course it is: All the future for man is imagined. Every goal we have is imagined in the future, it must be: The past is lost to those of us not equipped with time machines. All the past can do for us, then, is give us examples and peel away that which does not work. A Good in the past can only serve as a forward-looking model for what we imagine will be the outcomes of our own actions in the present. Thus, I find Machiavelli's view both true and superfluous. Man is always making decisions based on what he believes to be the Good, we are pulled in its direction because we cannot be "pushed" from an utterly impotent and inaccessible past. All our pondering of the Good within the past, all our job experience, can only model for us what our future might be if we perform a given action in the present (The present being the only place anyone can do anything). We are powerless to use it otherwise.

If the world and man's place in it is compared to a man in a boat, drifting down a river toward a waterfall, then Machiavelli proposes that man's focus ought to be on preparing the boat as well as possible for the conditions of the water based on his experience of the various twists and bends up the river behind him. Plato, on the other hand, asks whether the direction of the river is good for the man at all, and understands that rivers might be crossed (no pun intended) as well as traversed.

Hell is what pushes us from behind. Christians believe that Satan is the prince of this world, and this gives him power over it. But it also ties him to it. The Logos stands across time, it is the model for those in any present, as that is the only place we can ever find ourselves. And because this Good exists in the future as well, as it will for all time, as perfect now as it was a billion years ago, it is the only thing that could possibly be within our reach.

[gnosticmonk]

Bravo! Will be watching more! Thank you for the fantastically clear explanation.

[rsj]

So brilliant !!! I am so much richer for hearing Dr Kreefts' lecture.

[Babbajune]

I enjoyed this presentation ❤ Thank you!

[TheSunTeacher]

Excellent lecture series. One obstacle for enjoyment is the constant loop of water and birds in the background. To establish a tone of tranquility, it would suffice for it to be noticed at the beginning and then faded out shortly thereafter. When I concentrate and my hearing opens up, the birds and water clash at times with Keeft's words making them like noise and throwing me out of a student's meditative state for learning. Please remove this background noise or at the very least, do not include it with following lecture productions. Classrooms don't have artificial water and bird noises for a reason. :)

[samsontesfay]

My deepest appreciation to you Dr. Kreeft