5th Generation STOVL Capability for the UK

The F-35B combines STOVL capability with 5th Generation technology for the first time, a critical combination for the United Kingdom. This video debuted at the F-35 UK delivery ceremony July 19, 2012.

[marauder]

They US has a active production line for Ramjets; Europe has a line for pre-production Meteor engines; only a handful of been built. The GQM-163 "Coyote" is in full rate production with the sixth lot order recently (August 29, 2012) placed. Missiles are manufactured at the rate of about one a month. The Coyote is in active use and has been to exported to France because it was only way France (and MBDA) could qualify the Aster 30 against a supersonic, air-breathing missile.

[Squelch]

I haven't seen this turn yet? Any cids of this?

[marauder]

The Swiss Air Force evaluation documents were leaked. It's the most honest assessment out there. *Some* of the engines had trouble at the most extreme temperatures but not enough to withdraw the entire type.

The first pulse burns out to boost the missile to a high altitude. It coasts for many miles getting updates via a stealthy data-link, another radar or the enemy's emissions. The missile can then (but doesn't necessary) ignite its second pulse for it's dive.

[marauder]

Have you seen the launch signature of the Meteor? It's a smoky, explosive affair. The ramjet fuel has metal that reflects radar quite nicely. The ramjet is not flying a lofted trajectory (it can't) but a flat trajectory within the field-of-view of enemy sensors. It's got a much larger thermal signature due to body heating, its hot ramjet inlets and its very hot exhaust. Take a look at the US HSAD ramjet as well. It's quite a thermal event both in launch and in flight.

[marauder]

Most of the "D" missiles work just fine but there have been issues with motor reliability at the outer edges of the temperature envelop, hence the second supplier. The PK assessment comes from public domain US & Allied analysis, in particular Swiss Air Force evaluations against the Eurocanards. How does AMRAAM emit "a huge amount of heat" compared to meteor? It's radar and second stage doesn't engage until it goes terminal; it can be totally passive as well, homing on the target's EM emissions

[marauder]

Also take a look at the "Ramjet Tactical Missile Propulsion Status" from the AIAA 2002 Missile Sciences Conference; it shows the ramjet AMRAAM variant that was used in combat in the first Gulf War. It also shows HSAD the GQM-163 Coyote Ramjet missile that France recently bought from the US for testing against French ship defense systems. The US knows ramjets and their limitations.

[godalmighty]

A ski jump isn't required but it does shorten the take off distance required and will allow heavier max take off weights, the old harrrier saw massive gains thanks to the 12.5 deg jump on the ark royal. The B only has more thrust then weight in base config carrying little fuel or weapons so its is unlikely ever to see a vertical take off.

[marauder]

I cited the "Ramjet Tactical Missile Propulsion Status" paper by PW Hewitt (2002, AIAA Missile Science conference) which you can find instantly using Google. The French purchase and use of the GQM-163 "Coyote" ramjet was documented in French and US NavAir press releases and is described in depth on defenseindustrydaily . just search for Coyote. The History of the Meteor (and the initial UK BVRAAM ramjet project in general) is discussed in the paper above.

[eyeAMtwinkEE]

The consolidation of various nation's requirements is what has precipitated the development issues the F-35 has faced. If anything less catering should be done in one airframe.

Nevertheless, the F-35 is really, really cool. Thanks for the video.

[marauder]

The "D" is actually quite maneuverable because it has a second rocket motor pulse that engages when it begins its dive (the missile can fly a lofted trajectory) on the target aircraft. The point of the ramjet is not sustained power for turning and burning but higher sustained velocity to the target. A ramjet cannot turn as quickly or as tightly as a rocket because that would disrupt the airflow to the ramjet. Rather, the ramjet has to bank like an aircraft.

[marauder]

Again, the US has a ramjet missile in full rate production on a very mature line that can churn out a much more powerful Ramjet motor (the quad-ducted MARC-282) than the Ramjet motor used on meteor. The MARC-282 was adapted for HSAD and for an Air-to-Air missile.

[godalmighty]

Well almost, it cant take off vertically but asides from that pretty much. In the end it probably wont land vertically either, a Short Rolling Vertical Landing that the RN are currently testing has the prospects to be much more efficient especially combined with ski-jump launches both utilised could see a nice boost to range and carry weights.

[marauder]

The AMRAAM engines work just not at the F-22's extreme altitudes. Production continues for the Navy but not the Air Force. The MARC-282 Ramjet was adapted to an Air-to-Ground and Air-to-Air missile that heavily outrages the Meteor. DARPA is working on the Triple-Target-Terminator which will combine an Anti-Radiation, Air-to-Air and Air-to-Ground ramjet powered missile into a single airframe. Europe has no such comparable effort or full production ramjet motor. But thanks for playing!

[StereoSpace]

The name was agreed upon very early by the USA and the UK together. Lockheed built the P-38 Lighting in WWII. BAC built the English Electric Lightning in the 1950's. So the name is historic for both countries.

[marauder]

The PK of the late "C" and "D" is vastly better than what you state. The "D" has a two-way data-link and thus has three simultaneous terminal guidance modes (active, semi-active and data-link). Do you think it's really possible to defeat all three and the missile's kinematic advantage (it's diving on the target and the second stage motor has fired) ? That's assuming you've even detected the missile at all; it has a very small RCS (especially compared to meteor) and less drag.

[marauder]

From AIN: "MBDA admitted to setbacks in the test program. A total of 21 firings were required to achieve the 16 successful ones described above."

They've only done 21 test firings in *seven* years of testing. That's a pre-production missile rate of 3/year!
That Coyote rate is what the government wants; it chews up about seven missiles a year in testing. The production line has a surge capability for vastly more. Please let us know what the production rate for the Meteor will be?

[marauder]

Liquid cooling was necessary for the Blk 60 because it was so constrained from a power/cooling standpoint. A a decent sized array on the Blk 60 required extensive modifications which hurt performance relative to the Blk 52.
for 5th gen or a huge 4th gen fighter like the F-15 (its AESA is actually bigger and more powerful than the F-22s) or the Su-27 series there are fewer issues. Still, the US Russia, India, China, SK are going 5th gen because they understand the trends you do not.

[marauder]

BAE was exclusively involved with McDonnell-Douglas (which later merged with Boeing) because MD did a custom, licensed produced variant of the Harrier (AV-8B). BAE + MD + Northrop Grumman had a very capable (but largely notional) JSF submission that got eliminated. Boeing and Lockheed-Martin were the other two competitors. Boeing dropped MD's design after the merger with MD and BAE and Northrop-Grumman partnered with Lockheed. Boeing went on to lose the JSF competition to LM + BAE + NG.

[marauder]

I know the operational history of AMRAAM pretty well; actually ramjet versions of the AMRAAM were secretly used in the Gulf War. The AMRAAM has a very high PK and all were fired beyond-visual-range where they've knocked down MiG-29s and MiG-25s with ease (generally on the first shot). How's the Meteor coming along? It's way late and way over budget. The "D" is having problems due to it's new, much longer (50% increase) range motor. Nammo Talley has been engaged as a second supplier.

[marauder]

AMRAAM has been extremely reliable at long ranges. It's like saying we should design aircraft with backup propellers because jet engines were historically unreliable. The F-22 designers gave it the world's most powerful radar and most powerful passive electronic support measures so it could detect and destroy aircraft at very long range. The F-22 is optimized for first-look-first-look beyond visual range. It can dogfight but it doesn't have an HMD or HOBS SRAAM; added these has been expensive