Weaknesses of the Motte and Bailey Castle

[enchantingdan]

I remember playing Lords of the Realm 2 and whenever you selected this castle to build the announcer guy would say “a Motte and Bailey” in the most satisfying tone ever 😂

[manupupule]

THE PURPOSE of these designs is to make your position highly Defensive and give your allies time to show up. You go up into the tower, and the next time your bi weekly merchant comes to town they will notice its been besieged then they return to the neighboring town who you are supposedly allied with (midevil NATO style) and then they show up and fight the good fight on the ground.

[jckulewsky]

You neglect to mention that the keep on top of the motte often times had expansive storehouses for long sieges and therefore did not need access to the food producing Town below. It also is a massive deterrent for invading raiding parties because all of the valuables are kept out of reach. This meant a small fiefdom could see an attacker coming, retreat to the safety of the keep, and risk losing very little treasure to Invaders.

This style of fortification was created primarily to fend off raiding parties not for defense in full warfare. It's the same idea as keeping a pistol on you for self-defense instead of an M60. They have two different purposes and comparing the two is unfair.

[ayyelemayo]

The production of most of it's food would take place outside the castle walls anyways. Enough food would be stored in the motte/keep to hold out for an extended period. Sieges were a costly endeavour for the attacker in time, money, manpower but also it's own supply of food. There is only a limited amount you can get by plundering the surrounding area. So with it's layered defense the design is working as intended.

[pohateos]

Neither of those were "weaknesses"

The stockpile of food was kept in the keep and sallying out in a counter attack was a last resort. They just had to wait out until reinforcements showed up.

[saml]

The Mott was there simply to give you a fighting chance. It’s a last ditch effort to survive. If you lost the Bailey you’re basically already screwed. But the Mott will hopefully buy you a few days or weeks and allow you to hold out. It’s not meant to launch a counter attack. It’s meant to put up a defense and minimize damage. Any counter attack should be coming externally and if isn’t you’re just trying to outlast the occupation

[amberclad]

The point wasnt to counter attack. Procedure was for the village to rush to the castle which was then closed off. The armies could not sustain long sieges and so the goal was to outlast the invading force in a war of attrition. Additionally, a messenger was dispatched you would be waiting for friendly forces if they were available.

[kenstr]

Bro, be practical. These structures weren't made to fend off armies. They were made to protect against raiders.

[MaskOfAgamemnon]

There are countless examples of holdouts in a citadel hanging on until they can sally out or wait for the enemy to withdrawl.

Assuming people in the past were somehow dumb only reveals one's own lack of imagination.

[olorinmagus]

The Bailey won’t be producing much, if any food, it’s nowhere near large enough. It is however likely where they’re storing their food, so that is a fair point. Nitpicking aside, while the choke point is a potential issue, they also have a higher position from which they can fire down upon enemy forces holding the Bailey incredibly effectively, the food issue is far more important, but even then there is likely a separate food storage in the keep, and after losing the Bailey, they’ve also likely lost many of the mouths they need to feed, making that less critical.

[shuhratkessikbayev]

"A choke point works both ways"
Me who's played Operation Locker in Battlefield 4: You don't say.

[drewbakka]

The keep would definatly keep a food store for that exact purpose.

[publiusii]

Not having access to the places that produce food is a long term problem. As long as your storing all the food inside the second layer your kosher.

[Alldaboss]

Motte and bailey has always been my favourite design

[TheOpalHammer]

Errm, the Bailey didn't produce food (unless you brought in livestock I suppose). Food would mostly be stored in the keep.

[ShudderflyREAL]

I don’t really buy the majority of food for a town being produced inside the walls. It would be farms outside the town.

[DIY_Miracle]

The town is defended against initial attacks and banditry. Much more simple castle designs often just keep all the civilian infastructure outside anyway, allowing food stockpiles and high value items to be stored in the keep for a prolonged period of time, and preventing the enemy from safely making use of the civilian infastructure network of the region for a prolonged period by presenting a prolonged threat.

The motte and bailey design was indeed a very very good design, but building the actual rampart earthworks was incredibly labour intensive.

The choke point only really matters if your defence strategy involves probing attacks which many siege defense strategies inevitably would.

You can only support extremely limited food production enclosed in walls. One of the only forts that did was the outter walls of Constantinople, which most of it's life weren't even maintained. The food production point is very silly.

[gfingers]

This is so wrong on so many levels, the keep would have supplies for a short siege and I’m willing to bet it’s easier to fight down hill than up hill.

[manupupule]

I disagree.
For the first point. The town is defensible against sudden unexpected attacks.. like a cavalry rush in the middle of the night. And at the first sign your town is being attacked, before the rams knock down the gate, you can move your grain and people into the keep. Regarding the 2nd point, yes their is a choke point, for ground troops, but from high up in the keep you can rain down pointy hell with arrows against everyone below you, in that choke point and everyone in the town.

[Notllamalord]

A10 Airstrike would obliterate that thing