Plato against Democracy, Leo Strauss, and more

[anotherj]

I’m in the middle of reading The Republic. The article writers claim about “ a ridged class system “ isn’t really fair. Plato makes it clear that people can be born in one cast, but if they have the traits of another, that they should be put in the cast that reflects those talents and personal affiliation with the corresponding virtue. Sounds like a good circulation of elites to me.

[stephenoverdorf]

Courage is a virtue that you don't see listed on a banner inside a modern public school. "Safe" has replaced it.

[owenintheagon]

Been reading Plato outside of academic constraints for a few years now. And what has stood out to me is how secretly influenced Plato was by Sparta - and how this helps us understand his work in a light which modern academia has been obfuscating for many many decades.
Makes sense when you think about the outcome of the Peloponnesian war and the sudden reaction of the Athenian polis to use ostracization to cover up whatever it was that went wrong (thinking of what happened to Socrates and Alcibiades here)

[billschwandt]

I really love your work Millerman please keep putting it up for everyone.

[rafaeliglesiasdefigueiredo]

The article is enjoyable for its irony. While trying to frame Plato as being wrong for being against democracy, he (the author) becomes the living embodiment of that which makes democracy a poor political system. And in this article, he does not consider that a democracy devolves into tyranny because when a city (or nation) becomes democratic, it is already on the downwards path: oligarchy and tyranny surely follow. Your polite nod at the quote "The result is the proliferation of sycophants in public life, as demagogues peddle their wares among ignorant masses.", is a great summary of my opinion on this article.

Good stream, thank you for your work.

[JoseVargas-bjwd]

In matters of philosophy and political thought, I follow The Apostle Paul’s dictum: “Retain what is good and reject what is bad”.

Plato has something that makes him stand out monumentally in my view, namely, that he believed in ultimate, transcending values. He held up the view of The Good—and ultimately, The Good Society. Thus, Plato, Socrates, and Aristotle helped to create—in The West—what I call, The Social Conscience. This is something that is missing in other societies or not as finely formed.

Plato also helped pave the way for the scientific society that arose in the West, as he helped to form what Nietzsche termed “the will to truth”.

The clash of Hellenistic civilization and Christianity was dynamic and yielded much fruit for the better.

[JoseVargas-bjwd]

Plato contributed to the emergence of Republican Democracy by holding up important principles: Character in the Individual and the importance of Virtue.

He moved Hellenistic culture from a purely unthinking warrior culture to a more refined one, where some are very aggressive or spirited in their demeanor, but with words and philosophy, not with physical violence. Such was the way Socrates lived.

[Orville]

wish you'd do a vid on Attic Nights. The book single handedly turns all of greek philosophy on it's head.

[thadtuiol]

Bwahaha, this shitlib's anti-Platonic hit piece just made me like Plato even more!

[JoseVargas-bjwd]

“The City is the individual writ large”. Plato.

[LabelsAreMeaningless]

So I'm sure the author would be annoyed to learn that even his slanted article has lead me to feel even more firmly that Plato is correct. Reality isn't always the most pretty thought, but rejecting the reality leads to nothing but destruction, chaos and degradation.

[christofeles]

From Doyle's article: "Another expression of the connection between politics and reason was the political nature of Greek metaphysics, as philosophers projected the laws of their poleis into the laws of the universe."

This is the wrong, subjectivist way to look at the relation of reason to the cosmos. The very notion of a nature or cosmos (Hebrew does not even have this concept, interestingly enough) is that it constitutes the Order. NOT because order is projected (= attributed) to it, but because our human ordering itself is but one manifestation of it. We OBSERVE and borrow from the order of the cosmos, we do not "project" it.

To the Greeks, the Order was revelation, so to speak. The intelligible universe reveals its patterns, man does not create them. Naming and deciphering are not creation.

[khaderlander]

It's Interesting why Plato feels democracy degenerates into popular vote, if we consider the role of lopiests, special interest, influence of money, campaign financing and the superficiality of public debate and the dominance of images and the manipulation of public opinions and the resulting distrust and disenchantment of public with political in general. All those above mentioned important facts bring about the degeneracy of the democratic process.

[candidlens]

Republic is usually interpreted as a blueprint for how a society should ideally be governed according to Plato. But such interpretation is based on some rather large assumptions. Given that much of what's portrayed in Republic strikes us as naturally dystopian, it's worth pondering whether there may have been forms of esoteric communication at play. It's generally accepted that the utterances of Shakespearean characters aren't necessary the _thought_ of Shakespeare; and it's worth noting that historically few authors have had complete freedom to openly express themselves.

[ericksongarchitects]

How does the polis scale up to massive nations? All the assumptions become sus. One ambition is AI as the new philosopher kings.
I will ask ChatGPT to try and rule us like The Republic.

[martinponce]

This was a difficult listen but only because of the author’s joke of an article

[Havre_Chithra]

Democracy and the independent city states is what led to the chaos of the Greek Civil Wars. After united some of the states to defeat Persia, Athens sought to keep those alliances and expand territories.

The war between Sparta and Athens is embodies in Socrates.... No on can agree on anything in greece... Greece is at War at the time of Socrates...

Socrates... the voice of thr commoner... basically said we cant know anything at all (providing absolutely no solution to the problem at the time and instead throwing flames on the fire)....

Of course Athens killed Socrates... I would have to.

Plato atleast provided a solution after watching his homie get executed in public and was like NVM.... FORMS AND REPUBLIC AND SHIT lol...

When you put it in context of history, these philosophers are hilarious