Discussion on Christian Exclusivism with @Deflate2020

Chritian exclusivism is the idea that you need to be a christian to be saved. To a Hare Krishna this idea seems inconsistent with teh idea that God is all loving.

Lukas runs an excellent christian philosophy of religion YouTube channel called deflate where "he chalenges skeptics, strengehns beleivers and creates great conversatiosn about God."

Join this channel as a way of supporting it:

[beorn]

Hey Arjuna, I’m a Christian and I just wanted to say I really enjoyed the discussion! You’re a smart guy and you gave me a lot to think about… Just subbed!

[uninspired]

From a third perspective, an atheist evaluating the options presented. If Lukas is right, I get damned to torture for eternity because I got the ontological quiz wrong. If Arjuna is right, I atone for my mistakes, refine my soul with what I've learned, and try again in a new life.

The problem of exlusivism isn't so much about the nature of truth and not truth being dichotomous, but that salvation and damnation is dichotomous. And in particular, we are forced to take the quiz with incomplete information (see divine hiddenness problem). Once the quiz is over, there is no way back from damnation. In Arjuna's view it's never "too late".

The kind of pressure the threat of damnation applies is more akin to abuse techniques than exemplary of any kind of love. To me the christian idea of mercy seems more like gaslighting. I could be earnestly seeking truth my entire life and be punished eternally for getting something wrong.

[annapobst]

Thank you for this fascinating discussion!! Love Lukas 😃 everything he says makes perfect sense! Jesus was an exclusivist but not sectarian, Jesus said "I am the way, the truth, and the life".

[rolandwatts]

The problem with Christian exclusivism is that even within the faith itself, exclusivism often breaks down into mutually exclusive, mutual finger pointing tribes (Arminian/Calvinist, Catholic/Protestant, Mormon/All other Christian groups, Trinitarian/anti-Trinitarian, etc)

.

It's always been thus.



Hence, even if I were to become a Christian, there would be another Christian or Christian group somewhere who would look at the specifics of my faith, point the finger, and say - "Not a true Christian".  It was being in exactly that situation around the age of 20 which proved pivotal in the losing of my own faith.

Back in the beginning, Paul was having precisely that same problem.



In essence, what must one do to be saved? Who knows. It goes far wider than just an application of John 3:16.

[gradyharbor]

Just as there are differences and diversity in nature, there can be differences in spirituality. Roses are different than tulips. Turtles are different than monkeys. This doesn't mean one is THE flower or THE animal. They are simply different. There are many paths to God, just like there are different rivers that lead to the ocean or different streets that you can take to get downtown. When I make a lasagne, I use cheese, some people use bechamel, both can be good.

[penlight]

if you think hat Christianity is not about good works for salvation than read the book of James.
So you see, faith by itself isn't enough. Unless it produces good deeds, it is dead and useless (James 2:17)

[promma]

Please have a discussion on theology of Islam, or any concept of Islam belief...

[doctorisout]

I never met a thief with different moral intuitions.

[mudhamartin]

So his argument is that if you exclude his claim that Christianity is the only way then you too are also being an exclusivist. How do you rebuttal?

[st.mephisto]

18:01, this is wrong, Arjuna!
I urge you, if you are serious about Christianity you should stop bringing Protestants and focus more on Eastern Orthodox or Catholic theologians.
Bring Bishop Barron, Jonathan Pageau or Father Richard Rohr! They have a better perspective.

[samuelwatkinson]

I'm not surprised at all that Lukas, like virtually all Christian apologists, would regurgitate the tired largely Protestant-originated myth that Christianity is "set apart" from other non-Christian religions by its emphasis on God's grace/mercy as primary or more important than human works. Nor am I surprised that he would regurgitate the theistic personalist caricature of Advaitins as believing in an "impersonal destiny in which your own personality is sucked up in the wider consciousness that is ultimate and that permeates all things." Nor, finally, am I surprised that he would regurgitate the tired Christian apologist motto that 'truth, by nature, is exclusive'.

Anyway, his eschatological view is of course intrinsically nonsensical, based as it is on a form of the freewill defense of eternal hell that only ends up revealing God's utter incompetence and/or lack of power to save all persons in the end.