Should we pray to the saints?

In this video, the question "should we pray to the saints?" is answered.

[davidcooke]

You should do a full length podcast on this. Particularly covering the transition from "Early" to "Medieval" Prayers to saints. Just IMO.

[windowsoflife]

I’ve just recently found your channel and appreciate your ministry. I bought several of your books after watching you presentation of participation in Christ, theosis, etc. Thanks!

As an Anglican priest, trying to make sense of the reality of the communion of the saints, and how that plays out, I offer a few thoughts that I’ve found helpful.

Throughout the Psalms, for example, Psalm 103:20-22, addresses angles and all the gravely host, to praise the Lord. The Doxology does the same thing. Rev. 8:3-5 provides a vision of the heavenly intercession among the saints, the whole apocalyptic letter proclaims the unification of heaven and earth in Christ… open heaven, and so forth. Other examples of addressing the company of heaven are Rev. 12:12 and 18:20. I’m not trying to make a definitive case for invocation of “ all the company of heaven, ” but I see the connections in these passages.

God is not the God of the dead, but of the living becomes a basis, as you well know, for the practice. Jesus illustrates this in his transfiguration, speaking to Moses and Elijah.

Another passage is Hebrews 12:22-24, “But you HAVE come to Mount Zion…” describing the angels, the church of the first born, the spirits of righteous men… . This scene is running in the background of our (Anglican) Eucharistic liturgy. The realized eschatology of Ephesians and Colossians go on to support our place in Christ, seated in heavenly places. As I ponder these and many other passages, I can see why the Church carried their prayer to the logical conclusion. All prayer is IN Christ, our intercessor, and we participate in this collective, cosmic intercession.

[SantaFe]

The only difference between worship and veneration is that the former comes from Anglo-Saxon origin and the latter is Latin.

[shepherdessinthefray]

I hope I don't seem like a creeper lol, I am just happy to have stumbled upon an interesting, informative, thoughtful LCMS channel. And just want to give a big thumbs up and encouragement that I hope you get to continue doing these videos more often. As an LCMS myself who reads theology and philosophy for fun, it is not easy to find people in real life to discuss such things lol. Youtube and podcasts are going to have to be one of my outlets until that changes. XD

[ImCarolB]

As well, we need no intermediary between us and God. My feeling is one that you don't bring up, that as the church spread into pagan areas of Europe, the cultural beliefs held on to the "need" for a mother goddess and gods that addressed specific areas of life. Veneration of Mary and various saints morphed into substitutes for those pagan deities; thus we end up with "patron saints" who are prayed to according to their alleged powers to deal with certain situations.

[SilouanSea]

That prayer is not always worship is clear in the Psalms that address the heavenly host, Psalm 103, and after the resurrection of Christ this same heavenly host addressed when we pray Psalm 103 includes departed saints, as Revelation makes clear. Revelation also shows these same heavenly hosts holding up bowls full of incense which contains the prayers of the church on earth, showing how the departed saints operate as intercessors, mediating the petitions. So, yes, prayers to the saints is Biblical, Apostolic and regularly practiced in every age of the Church.
Also among the Orthodox the distinction between veneration and worship is well understood among the laity. It's actually Protestants who don't get it.

[MK-quxs]

Pr. Cooper, do the Fathers who advocate praying to the saints offer any biblical citations or exegetical warrant for the practice? Also, since the Virgin Mary came up so many times in this video, what do you make of the Semper Virgo clause in the Formula of Concord?
Thanks as always.

[lermadaniel]

Hello Pastor Cooper, will you ever make a video discussing the Lutheran view of Communion?

[jupiterinaries]

Yes indeed. Praying in the Bible is always to God. Jesus did talk to two OT "saints" at the Transfiguration but we can't conclude that he was praying to them.

[cheesedtomeetyou]

What’s your thoughts on the Hail Mary / Ave Maria?

[josueinhan]

Certíssimo! Mas por favor, faça um vídeo longo e detalhado cobrindo toda essa questão. Certamente será muito importante e útil.

Obrigado

[balanjayf]

Mr. Cooper is misunderstanding the distinction between veneration and worship. Sacrifice is the only thing which constitutes worship. There were early heretics who offered instance to Mary, etc., but they were just that, heretics.

[giannihatzianmevris]

Praying to Mary & the Saints is unbiblical!

There's a difference between asking family or church friends to pray for you, (which by the way doesn't mean that those people you've asked to pray have more power or authority than you, but that if more people join in, more petitions are heard at the throne of God) and there's a difference with speaking to dead people!

Jesus is both Mediator & Intercessor. If Jesus is sufficient for both those roles then why do we need to pray to Mary or one of the saints, who by the way, are dead! By praying To them, we are taking the attributes of God and placing them on mere humans!

If the word of God tells us to come to Him directly, then why do we need to pray to anyone else???

Take a look at the following scriptural references:

Romans 8:34
[34]Who is he who condemns? It is Christ who died, and furthermore is also risen, who is even at the right hand of God, who also makes INTERCESSION for us.

Hebrews 4:14-16
[14]Seeing then that we have a great High Priest who has passed through the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our confession.
[15]For we do not have a High Priest who cannot sympathize with our weaknesses, but was in all points tempted as we are, yet without sin.
[16]Let us therefore come boldly to the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy and find grace to help in time of need.

1 Timothy 2:5
[5]For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus,

Acts 4:12
[12]Nor is there salvation in any other, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved.”

Jeremiah 29:12-13 Then you will call on me and come and pray to me, and I will listen to you. You will seek me and find me when you seek me with all your heart.

Jeremiah 33:3 Call to me and I will answer you and tell you great and unsearchable things you do not know.

[ronobvious]

Liked the content but might be worth a redo indoors. That wind kills your voice at times.

[hjc]

So to clarify, if we do just a quick out loud “st Augustine pray for us, st Mary pray for us” is that wrong or acceptable, as a Lutheran, like the early church? Not trying to pray in the spirit like unto the Lord, but just an out loud request that may go up to them asking for their intercession

[語弊-sq]

The catholic position is that they dont pray to the saints but honor them in asking for intercession.
So even though the saints are mentioned it is prayer to God.
So how do you answer that?

[david_porthouse]

But you never say what prayers we should be saying instead! There are quite a few prayers in the Bible which could usefully be set up on a spreadsheet, printed off, laminated and left around the church for the use of visitors. I have just bought a laminator for £30 and my first prayers are the Litany of Loreto and the Litany of the Saints. I can keep these waterproof plasticised prayers in the lower boot of my car and get them out whenever I visit a strange church. No doubt you have other ideas, but you never tell us what they are.

Elsewhere I have put up a “Know your psalms” posting which I will add here if asked. It involves cycling round the psalms in order once a year to get to know them. Why don’t Protestants produce this sort of thing? You could set up a selection of psalms on a spreadsheet, print them as PDFs, distribute them for free and invite people to leave laminates in church. Whingeing on about what the Catholics get up to doesn’t impress.

[Bible_Loving_Lutheran]

This is scary
‘If you say the Rosary faithfully until death, I do assure you that, in spite of the gravity of your sins “you shall receive a never-fading crown of glory.” Even if you are on the brink of damnation, even if you have one foot in hell, even if you have sold your soul to the devil as sorcerers do who practice black magic, and even if you are a heretic as obstinate as a devil, sooner or later you will be converted and will amend your life and save your soul, if – and mark well what I say – if you say the Rosary devoutly every day until death for the purpose of knowing the truth and obtaining contrition and pardon for your sins.’
–St. Louis Marie de Montfort (Secret of the Rosary)

[Bible_Loving_Lutheran]

There can be no doubt that the Virgin Mary is in heaven. How it happened we do not know. And since the Holy Spirit has told us nothing about it, we can make of it no article of faith . . . It is enough to know that she lives in Christ.
(Sermon of August 15, 1522, the last time Martin Luther preached on the Feast of the Assumption)

The veneration of Mary is inscribed in the very depths of the human heart.
(Sermon, September 1, 1522)

[She is the] highest woman and the noblest gem in Christianity after Christ . . . She is nobility, wisdom, and holiness personified. We can never honor her enough. Still honor and praise must be given to her in such a way as to injure neither Christ nor the Scriptures.
(Sermon, Christmas, 1531)

One should honor Mary as she herself wished and as she expressed it in the Magnificat. She praised God for his deeds. How then can we praise her? The true honor of Mary is the honor of God, the praise of God's grace . . . Mary is nothing for the sake of herself, but for the sake of Christ . . . Mary does not wish that we come to her, but through her to God.
(Explanation of the Magnificat, 1521)

Mary is the Mother of Jesus and the Mother of all of us even though it was Christ alone who reposed on her knees . . . If he is ours, we ought to be in his situation; there where he is, we ought also to be and all that he has ought to be ours, and his mother is also our mother.
(Sermon, Christmas, 1529)

It is a sweet and pious belief that the infusion of Mary's soul was effected without original sin; so that in the very infusion of her soul she was also purified from original sin and adorned with God's gifts, receiving a pure soul infused by God; thus from the first moment she began to live she was free from all sin"
(Sermon: "On the Day of the Conception of the Mother of God, " 1527)

She is full of grace, proclaimed to be entirely without sin- something exceedingly great. For God's grace fills her with everything good and makes her devoid of all evil.
(Personal {"Little"} Prayer Book, 1522)

Christ . . . was the only Son of Mary, and the Virgin Mary bore no children besides Him . . . I am inclined to agree with those who declare that 'brothers' really mean 'cousins' here, for Holy Writ and the Jews always call cousins brothers. (Sermons on John, chaps 1-4, 1539)

A new lie about me is being circulated. I am supposed to have preached and written that Mary, the mother of God, was not a virgin either before or after the birth of Christ . . .(That Jesus Christ was born a Jew, 1523)

Scripture does not say or indicate that she later lost her virginity . . .
When Matthew [1:25] says that Joseph did not know Mary carnally until she had brought forth her son, it does not follow that he knew her subsequently; on the contrary, it means that he never did know her . . . This babble . . . is without justification . . . he has neither noticed nor paid any attention to either Scripture or the common idiom. (That Jesus Christ was born a Jew, 1523)

Anyone have something else to prove differently? Directs statements by Luther and not someone trying to contradict what Luther has spoken on? Please share if you do. Richard Bolland Daniel A. Hinton

Martin Luther kept to Catholic doctrine about Mary on this point.

The “brothers and sisters” referred to in Scripture are kinsfolk, not siblings.

Only recent sects and cults originating in the seventeenth century and later fail to esteem the perpetual virginity of Mary. They are ignorant or heedless of apostolic tradition, which they have lost and deviate from substantially.

[billgrumling]

I might just say this I am not sure in the first part you are teaching the right thing the union of the church in heaven and on the Earth is the same exact teaching as the Mormons an d was also taught by early gonostics