Another Fatal Vmc Demo Stall Spin!! N369BB 4 Dec 2023

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Theme: "Weightless" Aram Bedrosian

[passenger]

I am a retired UK airline pilot with a tad under 20K hours, which includes a few thousand on light to medium twins. 
This has got to be the best channel out there for disseminating post crash information. I learn something every time I tune in. Thanks for taking the time to produce these interesting and informative videos Juan.

[craighoward]

I am a "seasoned" pilot with 2500 hours over 40 years. I just got my multi-engine (it's about time!) and I really wish this video was available before I trained. This was a really interesting detailing of spin recovery... and avoidance. The dance with VMC during training and then on the check ride was disconcerting, and frankly not fully elaborated. I will send this video to anyone I know going into multi training. Thanks Juan.

[tomayers]

Retired 777 captain for the same airline you work for Juan. Love your channel and what you do for aviation! Keep up the good work.

[Cpt-Pugwash]

A 500 hour CFI with all the confidence in the world never realizes just how little experience they actually have.

[glassesstapler]

That call out to ATC was basically the equivalent to people calling out to their mom, at the point of death. Sadly, as a Combat Medic, I've heard that voice before. R.I.P. to both of them.

[boeingavtr]

You’re absolutely correct! We don’t need to prove the book Vmc speed. When I checked out in the Aztec, my instructor would only let me demonstrate Vmc with 1/2 rudder. We’re demonstrating a concept, not certifying the Vmc speed!

Problem…. Some DPEs will only accept full rudder. Hence, problems

[M_MTsc]

This is exactly what happened to me on my travel air checkride. One moment we were stalling and the next we were upside down. The only thing I believe saved me us is that I did a lot of spins for my aerobatics rating. Poor instructor was like a deer in the headlights. Very lucky and very scary.

[restojon]

Hearing that oscillating wind noise in the background of the atc call is just chilling, may they rest in peace. Strength, love and courage to those they left behind.

[jimcaufman]

My first airplane instructor was a low time kid who was an excellent instructor. Early 1970. At the time, I needed 5 hours solo and the recommendation of a flight instructor for my airplane single engine land to be added to my commercial Rotorcraft helicopter. I had just got out of the Army as a Warrant Officer helicopter aviator and passed my civilian written test. There was no check ride required for military pilots converting to civilian ratings in the type aircraft the flew in the military. I had just about 2000 hours of helicopter time with 1600 plus in combat as a pilot, aircraft commander and instructor pilot. The GI bill was paying the bill so all I had to do was pass an oral and check ride. With a total of 22 hours airplane time, I was a commercial pilot. Passed my instrument check ride and multi engine check ride with less than 75 hours airplane time. I still was not 23 so I could not take my ATP training. All training was done in Piper aircraft. Multi engine was in an Aztec (Aztruck). Now that I am 76 and a retired airline pilot, I think civilian pilot training is a disaster from day one to your first type ratting. Flight training needs to be rethought with more done in ground procedures trainers and motion simulators. It has to be cheaper, safer and produce a much better pilot.

[Mooney]

This is the same story that the Twin Comanche went through way back in the 70s. The Twinkie got a bad rap for so many bad outcomes in Vmc demos.
Training was changed to having the instructor block the rudder so that the Vmc affect could be seen way before the stall was actually approached.
Back then the FAA even required that the Vmc demo had to be demonstrated at low altitude in order to enhance the visual affect of the importance of doing it correct. THAT was changed after several crashes.

Forget history and we are bound to repeat it!!!

[ljthirtyfiver]

Got 2088 total time over, 500 in the Airbus. These videos always give the perspective I need to never get comfortable. Thanks a bunch.

[Tony-ylii]

You’re doing a real great job for the young generation. Please keep doing what you do.

[johnstreet]

Juan I see and hear your frustration and sadness about these totally preventable tragedies. You are the best there is at explaining what went wrong and how NOT TO DO IT! Thank you for what you do. Blessings.

[johnwise]

As of a study in 2017, the average Flight Instructor was 23 and only instructed for 10 months. Just enough time to get into the right seat of a regional. I totally agree with your assessment.

[Flyperryair]

Great explanation. I'm glad the MEI that I flew with was aware of this condition. He would apply Rudder pressure with his foot just like you described. I didn't understand it at first, but I'm glad he did!

[Joe_Not_A_Fed]

That upside down flip also happens in a 172 when practicing spins. One of the huge advantages of those planes, is that they are approved for spins if the weight is kept below the utility weight threshold, which was 2000lbs...at least in ours. Skyhawks really don't like to spin so you have to add a bunch of energy to kick things off...especially with a big boy or two in the seats. The way we did it was to get to a safe altitude (for us it was 4000' AGL) then get really slow and as the horn was blaring, add full left rudder and a healthy shot of gas. That unit would snap onto its back in a heartbeat.

But like I said, they really don't like to spin so you have to keep rudder in and stick all the way back and even then, it would usually flop out of the spin on its own. What a 172 really does like to do, is spiral. That's the puppy that tears wings off of inadvertent IMC aircraft. It's usually a subtle thing at first. Basically, it starts off as a gentle, coordinated turn. If it happens during a boring part of cruise, you might not even notice. Before too long, the increasing G load may get your attention but then you're trying to figure out WTF...so what happens when you notice the altimeter unwinding? You pull back while in a steep, diving, accelerating, turn and BLAMO! Maybe you snap into an extra violent accelerated spin/stall. Maybe you lose a wing.

Spin recovery won't always work with a spiral dive and could make it worse. The first rule of spiral recovery, is knowing that you're in a spiral.

Juan, I would be very interested in your take on spiral dives. To my way of thinking (and of course there are plenty of exceptions) spins are more of a low, slow, patter problem...and spirals are a cruise killer. With a spin, it's the ground that's the killer. A spiral can tear a plane apart without hitting a thing.

Thanks for doing what you do.

[noblegoldheart]

I currently live in Huntsville, AL and I currently work at a flying club in the area as a mechanic, and I heard about this crash through the people I work with. It shook me a little bit because I myself have been learning to fly, and have recently scheduled my check ride, which I'm very confident I'll pass. At the club I fly and work at, my instructors have always emphasized the phrase, "Aviate, navigate, communicate", especially in an engine failure and a spin, which the club instructors also emphasize. My instructor always drilled the acronym PAER in my head. Power idle. Ailerons neutral. Elevators down. Opposite rudder. Eventually I want to fly for the airlines myself, but at the same time, I don't want to rush my training. Because I want to be as safe a pilot as I can. And learning from the accidents is one way I think will make me a safe pilot.

When people say students are being rushed through flight training, I don't have any doubt in that statement at all. In the Huntsville area there is also flight school called Revolution Flight, which this travel air belonged to. I have heard very shady things about Revolution Flight in almost every aspect. Training, maintenance, management, and business. I'd be hard pressed to think part of the cause of this crash was because of the way training is conducted at Revolution Flight. But I'll wait for the NTSB report before I make any assumptions.

I would also think part of the problem with bad training is instructors not giving their full attention to their students, because they're just using flight instructing to get to the airlines as quickly as possible. I'm very blessed to have been assigned to an instructor who deeply cares for his students, and does a thorough job in making sure his students are ready for their check rides, both knowledge wise, and flight skill wise.

[SkyWayMan]

I’m sharing this story in case it saves someone else’s life. My MEI entered a Vmc-induced stall-spin during training in a PA-44 at 14, 000 feet. The ONLY way they were able to recover was for the instructor to climb up onto the glare shield while his student performed the PARE recovery items. Full elevator down wasn’t enough to break out of it; the instructor had to physically move forward as far as possible to adjust the airplane’s CG enough for the nose to drop. Had they been lower, they would’ve perished. Might be worth adding to your toolkit; you never know if you may need it.

[Halli]

I soloed in 1972 and retired in 2015 - initially Alaska-style bush flying (minus the bush, this was in Iceland where the weather is even nastier and bush is hard to find). The absolutely best advice I ever got was before my solo flight: If the airplane starts behaving funny, UNLOAD (reduce the angle of attack)! When the airplane behaves again, fly out of it. If you mucked up at a too low altitude, you are in deep shite...
The same applies if you abuse a light twin (or any multi-engine aircraft for that matter) at altitude; revert the airplane to a C150 mode - chop power and take it from there. If you are struggling on one engine shortly after takeoff, you do not have that luxury, do things by the book or become a statistic. No fumbling around...

[slicershanks]

Juan this was an excellent expose into WHY GETTING SPIN TRAINING AND/OR A SPIN ENDORSEMENT IS SO IMPORTANT TO SAFETY. Years ago the FAA decided that stall awareness and unusual attitude training was sufficient enough for the initial PPL, where in most other countries they still teach spins, getting in and getting out of them. From my years of general interest in aviation I already knew in general the procedure for getting out of a spin, but it took me reading about them in the Airplane Flying Handbook (which is available FREE online because we pay taxes) when I wrote my lesson plan for my endoresment, and it talks about why every step in PARE is designed the way it is, what each action does to reduce the aggravated stall or how doing the opposite could make things worse. Aerobatics, I agree, is such an eye opener to learning about the dynamics of flight, someday, I want to do more aerobatics when I have the time and means.