No, Russia isn’t ‘reviving the Soviet empire’

Even before Russia’s invasion of Ukraine began on Feb. 24, pundits and politicians in the West have uncritically made bizarre claims that we are witnessing Vladimir Putin’s master plan to “revive the Soviet empire” or re-establish the pre-Soviet Russian empire. At the same time, in other corners of political discourse occupied by the left, it can seem like “empire” is a term that can only be used when referring to Western powers, particularly the US. What do we mean when we talk about “empire” and “imperialism” in the 21st century, and can these terms help us make sense of the war in Ukraine, why it’s happening, and where this is all headed? TRNN Editor-in-Chief Maximillian Alvarez speaks with Professors Ronald Grigor Suny and Valerie A. Kivelson about their extensive research into the history of Russia’s past empires and about what that history can (and can’t) tell us about Russia’s war in Ukraine.

Ronald Grigor Suny is the William H. Sewell Jr. Distinguished University Professor of History and Professor of Political Science at the University of Michigan, and Emeritus Professor of Political Science and History at the University of Chicago. He is the author of many books, including: “They Can Live in the Desert But Nowhere Else”: A History of the Armenian Genocide; Red Flag Unfurled: Historians, the Russian Revolution, and the Soviet Experiment; and Stalin: Passage to Revolution. Valerie A. Kivelson is the Thomas N. Tentler Collegiate Professor and Arthur F. Thurnau Professor of History at the University of Michigan. She is the author and editor of numerous books, including: Cartographies of Tsardom: The Land and Its Meanings in Seventeenth-Century Russia; Picturing Russia: Explorations in Visual Culture; and Desperate Magic: The Moral Economy of Witchcraft in Seventeenth-Century Russia. Together, Suny and Kivelson are the coauthors of Russia’s Empires, which was published in 2017 by Oxford University Press.

Pre-Production/Studio/Post-Production: Cameron Granadino

Read the transcript of this interview:

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[davidpeppers]

41:00 "Impossible in America?" I think you overstate your case. There is heiarchy and clear class divisions in the US.

Heiarchy is ubiquitous in the US. You see it at work, in the marketplace, and in the government services people may access. Money and education being the main points of demarcation. Education is divided into rich, well funded schools and schools which go begging. We have special memberships which get you into special places, behind the scenes, the front of the line, out of the mud, extra room and accommodations (think first class tickets) and more. Sure, many of these things anyone can have. Absolutely anyone can have them, just so long as they have the money. That makes it no less a heiarchy.

Our government serves its citizens in a very heiarchical way. The wealthy participate heavily in politics, get to the front of the line and have a very responsive government. The lower 90% receive almost no access and response from government. The 10-20% least wealthy have increasingly more painful burdens put upon them, thanks in large part to government policies and tax structures. What would you call that?

We have plenty of class divisions here in the USA. We just aren't allowed to talk about them because some places are worse.

It's okay to open your eyes here at home.

[matthewkopp]

Although there is a point to be made in regards to hierarchy in the USSR and Eastern Bloc states, and it was made then by citizens. That hierarchy is actually nothing compared to the United States where we have extreme inequalities.

Eastern Bloc states in general had guaranteed housing, jobs, education including college and vocational training, healthcare, daycare, and inexpensive transportation, food, gymnasiums, sports teams, vacations, pools, etc. citizenship meant you had a guaranteed middle class existence.

In an apartment in East Berlin your neighbors were plumbers, doctors, teachers, assembly line workers and janitors all in the same amazingly spacious apartments. And you could even apply for second weekend garden homes outside of the city. And there are things that the USA has never seen like equal pay rights for women.

The major complaints in DDR were lack of luxury items, censorship that often made no sense, lack of travel to the west, and Stasi snitches.

Tony Blair gave a famous speech about how he wanted to tear down all the previous social hierarchies in British society. It was the biggest gas lighting rhetoric in political history, it’s an illusion, the neoliberal period increased in equality and hierarchy.

I don’t mean at all to excuse the communist party privileges which were well know. But a little perspective is needed on the issue.

And just for the record, Karl Marx never wrote that everyone was to be equal, he said, “Each according to his ability, each according to his need.” Marx thought the concept of equality was abstract idealism.

[antoniorsoftware]

Anyone who starts by saying "unprovoked attack on Ukraine" is not worth listening.

[veronicaancrum]

When your guests said “unprovoked attack” I knew listening to this discussion was a waste of time. What the hell happened to the real news?

[DoktorKleinMusic]

Important correction: Putin did restore the flag and anthem of the USSR and does intend to revive the defunct Soviet Union.

[elizabetholbert]

It's always great to see Russia discussed thoughtfully by intelligent people, but when the first guest used the phrase "unprovoked attack" in his opening remarks, all my hopes for objectivity whimpered softly and died.

Half an hour in, and they haven't come back to life. This is just sad.

[Bastet]

Wise people say that history must be known in order NOT to repeat the mistakes of the past.
Now a little of history.
At the end of the 18th century, Nazis appeared in Germany. Nobody gave it any importance. Nobody took any action. As a result, the number of these scum increased, this infection struck an entire state, which went to war against the whole world.
The price that the whole world paid for ignoring the birth of fascism and Nazism, for inaction at the initial stages of the development of fascism and Nazism, were numerous victims, a lot of broken lives, undermined world economy and so on.
So, in order not to repeat the mistake of the past, Russia launched this special operation to demilitarize and denazify Ukraine.
There're Nazis, fascists, Bandera in Ukraine. And it's a fact.
And there're national battalions such as "Azov", "Tornado", "Aidar" and many others in Ukraine.
There's video evidence of how the Nazis, Nazis, Bandera organized parades in the cities of Ukraine with the tacit permission of the government of the country and the Ukrainians.
They're even allowed to run for president as candidates.
In Ukraine, streets were named after Bandera and Shukhevych. It's like in Germany they would name a street after Hitler.
In honor of lousy scums, such as Bandera, Shukhevych, they even issued stamps.
Portraits of Hitler hang in Ukrainian schools!
A few more proofs can be given, but I'm sure that's enough, so I won't waste time.
Want to know the truth when watch these videos:

[andre]

unprovoked attack on ukraine? what are you smoking?

[NikolaAvramov]

So this is a choice between two scholars.
Both of which insist on forgeries about ancient and autochtonous Ukraine, avoid the anti-Russian agendas of Lenin and Trotsky, insist that the Russian empire is bad no matter what it did and imply that the world is all about equality except Russia.
But one's mentioning that NATO did indeed spread to the east.
How is this plurality of thought being presented?

[ericbrown]

A fine example here of INTELLECTUAL DISHONESTY!

[faceclutch]

I am not sure how intellectually honest is it to say "unprovoked attack" by Russia. I think there is some confusion between provocation and moral justification. We can debate the moral justification of any kinetic warfare. However, to say unprovoked attack is to say an unfounded irrational decision. You can never find a solution to a problem (resolution for peace) if you do not know the problem definition.

[michellesweetlove]

It is so sad to see Western people ignore the complete history the area referred to as Russia. The continued tribalism established is still ignored and Leadership that was above that tribalism. Sadly this continues even in our dealings with the still existing tribalism amongst the people there a complete misunderstanding along with the current leaderships misunderstanding but not as bad. Oh well this is one of the reason I became a scientist instead of a historian in the United States of money

[jessicaconeja]

Interesting that she talks about Putin wanting to tell a happier story about his county. What would you call what Disney and Hollywood has for over a century? 🤔

[elenagamora]

With all due respect to the Ukrainians, their history and language, what kind of sovereignty of Ukraine can we talk about, especially after the coup d'état directed by State Department (Biden, Nuland, McCain) using Ukrainian Nazis

[woodytobiasjr]

The Soviet Union was never an empire. Quit spreading lies.

[tcheyne]

Bwa ha haha ha, Russia’s empire🤣😂😅 Russia is not the country that bombed 9 Middle East countries into rubble——— FOR NOTHING! No legitimate reason.

[unknowndevice]

"Soviet empire" is an oxymoron

[lajungesombre]

A very VERY Western lens on this whole discussion. I would say I am disappointed but I don't expect much so 🤷🏼🤷🏼🤷🏼

[veronicaancrum]

Very pleased to read the comments of people who seem more honest than your guess.

[leroitiaks]

Just the title of the video shows the biases of the argument in it. The USSR was NOT an empire, get over it. Also, you convinced me to unsubscribe.