Is a PhD losing its value? What they don't want you to know

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In this video, I want to explore the idea that a PhD is losing value over time. Who benefits the most from your time and effort during a PhD and can you find value personally?

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▼ ▽ TIMESTAMPS
0:00 – useful, important and worth
2:58 – top PhD's
6:31 – who benefits most?
8:32 – supply and demand

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I did my PhD just to do it. Had nothing to do with career or seeking an academic position. I just like living for the pursuit of knowledge.

matthewdavis
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I’m currently pursuing my PhD (4th year). I never intended to enter the professoriate. I’d been weighing the pros and cons for applying for about 8 years prior to applying and what pushed me was a realization that, in life, we tend to regret the things that we don’t do more than the things that we do. Although it’s tough, I am happy that I made the jump.

donharris
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Recently doctorated in Material Science. My thesis was on thin films, I do now make DRAM memories in industry. Is PhD valuable? Yes. Helped? Yes. I could have done the same job with my master? Absofuckilutely. Did I regret to go on PhD path? Yes. 25K in salary more as entry position but... 5 years with 30K salary, plus mental pressure and grown anxiety. I could have entered at age 25 in industry, and in 5 years i'd earned way more, with a 9-5 job. Phd was 24/7 never stop. If I come back in time to my 20s i'll slap my face.

Dr.Sortospino
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My tutor has a PhD in computer science and he's 23.I still can't fathom how you could be that knowledgeable and be so young, I think getting a PhD is a magnificent achievement 👍

justinmckenzie
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7:30 is so accurate I had to chuckle thinking about my supervisor posing for pictures next to my experiment.

screew
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Thank you for sharing your insights, Andy!

I've given up the idea of having a permanent job, like a university tenure, a long time ago. I'm not saying I won't settle down on a good offer. I'm just saying that I focus on self-growth which can also come with changing roles/jobs. It's doable as long as you have careful financial planning for yourself and your dependents.

One of my professors told me to not expect a good job market after completing my PhD, to which I responded, "It's ok. I know."
I have many years of industry experience, and I'm returning to academia (as a PhD research fellow) this year because I want the kind of research training provided in the university. I have several ideas for my postdoc research; I hope I can finalize one of them to apply for a research grant (in collaboration with an experienced researcher) at the end of my PhD period. Meanwhile, I'll monitor the development of the industry of my field, and maybe pick up one or two new relevant skills, so that if I can't get a postdoc, I can work in the industry again.

Life is fun when you're comfortable with uncertainties :)

MelodyVioline
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I'm a PhD student myself. The issue of supply and demand is on point. The supply of PhD student, maybe for fields like physics, chemistry, bio are a bit too high. The demand for PhD student, i.e., the tenure track job is low. Then, PhD students are trapped in the endless cycle of postdocs. I see another issue: some PhD in these fields worked on too specific/narrow subjects. It might be hard for the students to transition to outside options, such as industry. The industry also thinks the same thing.

RegiKusumaatmadja
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I was shocked by how low the salary numbers were for PhDs in Math and Computer Science. Many of the software engineers I know make way over this and some of them don't even have a 4-year degree. They are just really good at getting things done with high quality and customer focus.

JBoya
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Well I think if you are in the public sector (e.g., public health, government, university) a PhD can open a lot of doors for someone. There are a lot of positions if you want to achieve an associate director or higher you need to have a PhD even though the job position doesn't explicitly state that. As of now I am working on my second masters degree and debating on whether a PhD would be worth it--but it might if it means that I can get to the higher levels within my own field. For instance, in a recent job interview the executive director suggested that I should consider getting a doctorate as its clear that I am a "life long learner" and could truly benefit from obtaining it. We shall see :)

jonf
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Unfortunately, there has been an overproduction of PhD’s in some disciplines.

Drganguli
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I have a Ph.D. from a mid-level university, I've been a college professor since the late 1980s, I also spent a bunch of years as a department chairman at a mid-level university, in the US and I've had about twenty PhD students and I've seen how their careers have progressed. My former students have ended up in the pharmaceutical industry, in academia, and in the FDA. All the same, I agree with most of what you say here. In life sciences most of the jobs for BS and MS degrees suck. In life sciences a PhD degree with an excellent publication record is impressive even if you are from a mid-range university. But with a PhD from a top rate university you get the benefit of the doubt even with fewer good pubs. So you're right, the deck is a little bit stacked. I also spent a sabbatical year at Harvard and saw first-hand how students and postdocs from there ended up, as well as my own career trajectory after that year. To be fair it's incredibly difficult to be accepted into a graduate program at a place like Harvard, and I was blown away by the quality of the graduate students that they have there.

stuartdryer
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I totally relate, thank you Andy. PhDs seem largely undervalued because designed to train professional academics, for the most part. Highly technical domains would benefit more from pursuing a PhD (e.g. data science, some advanced engineering, medical, etc). My domain is urban planning / human geography. I got my PhD at a former polytechnic in the North-East (England), doing a sort of market review of digital software in urban planning. So the PhD was fairly applied, looking at emerging market trends and opportunities for tech adoption across local government. I also have two master degrees and a bachelor degree from some of the very top universities in Europe. Although I have always networked extensively even as a Master student, I somehow failed to observe most academics work 60+ hours, with lots of 'volunteering' required (peer-reviewing journal articles; grant funding applications; informal mentoring in domain-specific networks, board meetings; doing major corrections for submitted journal manuscripts; etc).

However, it seems more of a liability to be highly educated when seeking work in industry, where all that seems to be required of candidates is to tick the right corporate boxes and adopt companies' systems and procedures without asking too many of the practical questions that interest industry-focused researchers. Also, AI-driven job board application systems that can filter out some of the most desirable candidates even if you mention all the right keywords. Government grant-funding for research and postdoc positions in anything remotely connected to my area of research are fiercely competitive across Europe. Also, covid-recovery and austerity means government might not be as keen to hire as they used to. All things considered, academics also seem to earn much less than senior industry professionals. Also, it seems transferable skills from academia transfer well to other academic settings, then to industry.

But as highlighted in the video, I did learn tons personally and connected with great people. Career-wise, though, perhaps I could have spent that time learning more data and computing as developers and analysts are in high demand across Europe, especially at senior level.

ianbabelon
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I believe you're on the spot with this Andy. We reached that point years ago with persons holding a masters degree. Whereas it was sufficient to indicate you held a post graduate degree ... it then became a critical differentiator to state WHERE you did your post graduate degree. Invariably, we ae quickly reaching that point on PhD holders. This is being exacerbated with Universities wishing to churn out post graduate students even though the quality and rigour is weak. While undermining the University and academia as a whole, the short-term metrics being imposed by University Administrators - predominantly financial and #of students - appear to fuel this practice. Higher ranked Universities, more so ones with deep pockets, can afford less emphasis on those metrics. Further, the cost of education for non-resident persons has galloped into the realms of the ridiculous.

dexterdanieltnt
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PHD Stands for piling higher and deeper, no one gives a shit outside academia about your pieces of paper only what you can do to advance their business

andrewwong
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In tech, many of the brightest choose to work instead of doing a PhD. Your ideas and personality are far more important than whether you went to an Ivy league or not.

Ikbeneengeit
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As a former grad student myself, I can tell you that the grad student population is full of people who are putting off getting a real job. They didn’t know what research was, they didn’t do internships while they were undergrads, and they don’t have any other opportunities available in their chosen fields. It’s either grad school or retail. So, they choose grad school. It’s not clear to me that most of us belonged in grad school because our advisors gave us research questions and declared the definitive interpretations of data. We were little more than lab technicians. But, if you stick it out and work for them, they’ll eventually give you a degree… of dubious value. The graduate never had to prove the ability to ask a worthy research question in the first place or solve it. Capitalism has nothing to do with this, unless you want to say that academic advisors are parasitic bosses.

I do like that you made a distinction between getting a degree anywhere versus getting a degree with an industrial affiliation. That’s what you really need at the undergraduate level, too: summer internships learning a real job. Then, you should take what you learned back to college the next year and do some research that can be tested the following summer. Then, in your senior year, you can write up a bachelors or master thesis about this work. That’s how you prove you can do private (or government) work. Completing a major or grad degree at any level is only proof that you might be a decent trivial pursuit player—not that the graduate is useful.

brandonburum
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I’m studying quantum computing and doing a PhD right now is essential to get a high paying industry job in the field because it primarily requires you to work in research and development. Id say it’s not worth it to do a PhD unless: you have a passion for your specific field and studying it as a career is your dream, or you simply need the degree to get the sort of job you want (which is my scenario).

jpetrullo
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As a final year PhD student who intends to finish in 3 years (UK system)- I would say, if you do end up doing a phd, do it for selfish reasons. It's a degree like any other degree, don't be sentimental about it, take advantage of travel opportunites, training courses and learn as much in your first and second year and get out asap. If a project is not going well by the 15 month, get out. If young (26 or young), find new mentors. Don't worry about a perfect thesis, worry about a done thesis. I also worked before this and learned where the gaps were in my field and wanted to use the PhD and the skills to create a niche for myself that I can monetize on. If you can do it while young, it is best. Whatever you do - find out ways to make a return on your investment (go into consultancy if all else fails). Sell, sell and sell yourself, use it to be a better speaker, attend career guidance talks, meet new people, grow yourself, use what you learn to uplift your community, and inspire young kids. Above all, have a growth mindset, and don't be a jerk just cos you have a Ph.D. Your general knowledge will have declined by the time you are done.

enockhavyarimana
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I'm fine with my bachelor's degree for a software development career. Academic background have been important to my employers, but mainly that I have some theoretical background, methodology and general scientific critical thinking. Considered getting a master but realized that all advanced skills I would need can be found in trade schools. I don't care to do research, which academia is for after all.

KarlOlofsson
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I completed my PhD in industrial Engineering and Computational Applied Mathemarics. Most of my research was solving applied problems for the sector I planned to work in and sponsored by NSF, Boeing, Northrop Grumman and so forth. I also did consulting while completing the curriculum. Mind you, I already had an MS in Mech-Aero Engineering and professional work experience. I picked up my P.E. license along the way and my TS clearence. I am currently a Project Lead Engineer, and hopefully in route for the Chief Engineer of my division. I would say, to me getting a PhD is great...depending what it entails and what you do or have done along the way while completing it, and how that would benefit you in the long run.

Idtelos