Vocational Training in Germany | Would it FAIL in the USA?

In 2017, 1.3 million students in Germany enrolled in vocational training, compared with only 190,000 in the U.S. So how does Germany's Dual VET system create such a trade job empire? And would it work in the USA?

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👉Quick Jump to Your Favorite Topic:

00:00 Intro
02:01 Germany's Education System Promotes Trade Jobs
04:23 America's Education System favors University
08:12 Germany's Dual VET Program Explained (Dual Vocational Education and Training)
11:37 America's Job Training Crisis
16:20 Vocational Education Stereotypes in the USA
20:55 Breaking the Stigma of Trade Jobs in America
23:54 Jack's House Tour

Episode 45 | #education #vocationaltraining and #tradejobs in Freiburg im Breisgau, Germany | Filmed February 24th, 2022

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[eventtroisdorf]

I came to Germany from the states in the 90s to study (because HEY! free tuition!) with the ultimate goal of working in the event industry. I found out that my skill-set was much better suited to vocational training, so I switched from the Uni to an apprenticeship and certified after two and a half years (I as well opted to shorten my apprenticeship) as an electrician. Fast foward - I did my Meister in Event Lighting (Meister der Veranstaltungstechnik) and now work as Technical Director in a civic hall, where I have my own apprentices. Not bad for a "college drop-out"!

[MrLuddis]

I am impressed by the profound work and research you put in those videos.

[IFS]

I'm a US expat living in Slovenia who attended one of the US regional vocational high schools in the '80s in the New England region with a student body of ~1600 students, and can share my perspective on this.
1) The class schedule format of my school was a bi-week alternating schedule pattern
Over a 2 week span the students would attend 1 full week of ~1 hour classroom subjects (academics) and then the following week would spend all day for all 5 days in their chosen vocational major (shop). With this flip flop scheduling, there were effectively 2 student groups being taught in an interleaved manner: one group was in the classroom while at the same time the other group was in their chosen shop doing hands on work, with the next week both groups switch.
This scheduling structure resulted in multiple benefits:
1.a) Classroom teachers and vocational teachers were able to teach 2x the number of students without doubling their classroom sizes, since they would teach the same lessons for two consecutive weeks to two different groups of students
1.b) Every week the academic subject teachers were able to assign a larger homework assignment on Friday, knowing the student would have 9 days to complete the work before they returned to class.
1.c) Vocational training was more in the format of a job, since you were in your "shop" for an entire school day rather than just a 1 hour slot and then switching subjects. Most vocational training involves setup and cleanup activities as well as subject specific practical work. Having the full day meant that your setup was in the morning, throughout the day you did your practical work, with cleanup only at the end just like the end of a work day.

Additionally, a training task could be scaled to require multiple days to complete with work in progress left in situ, since that student group would be in the shop for 5 consecutive days.

For example: Students who were learning plumbing would be able to get out their tools and materials in the morning, and work throughout the day cutting, and connecting pipes for their assignment throughout the week (perhaps plumbing a mocked up house, a task that could take up to 5 days of collaborative work).

1.d) academic training in your vocation would be one of your 1 hour blocks during your academic week, taught by one of the shop instructors.

1.e) "shop" student counts could be higher than classroom since most of the tasks are "hands on" work requiring supervision, not lecture.
For most of my "computer science" 4 years, each quarter the instructor would hand us a list of all the assignments for that quarter and when they were due, indicate the filing cabinet held the details, and let us go about our own self discovery while being a resource for guidance. At least for me an a few of my contemporaries this resulted in doing all the semester's assignments in the first week or so, and then spending the rest of our time writing our own programs (including games) with full support of the instructors.

2) Related vocation topics were grouped and together, and worked on collaborative tasks
For example: There was a grouping called "building trades" that included carpentry, cabinet making, plumbing, electrical wiring, etc. There was another grouping called "Electronics" that included electrical engineering, software, robotics (yes, in the 80s). Or a group called "hospitality" that included Retail management (running an on-campus public store), Culinary Arts (cooking related, including feeding the student body lunch every day), and even an on-site McDonalds run by students!

Moreover these trades collaborated in overlapping projects: For example: A group of students in the robotics shop might be building a new robot. They could "order" build services from the machinists or welding groups for some of the fabrication. Or in the example above for the plumber and the mock house, it would have been the carpentry students who built that house in the prior week. And then after (or even while) the plumbing students were working on it the electrician students would be wiring it.

3) Academic class subjects were correlated with vocational studies:
How often have you heard "Algebra or Geometry, when will I ever need this?" In my school experience, these math topic problem assignments were often directly associated with one trade or another. For example (trig problem): A machinist wants to set up a reference 22° incline for a part on a milling machine, and has a 10 cm block with two 1 cm metal rods at the bottom spaced 8 cm apart. What spacing should be put under one of rods to achieve 22°

4) Hugely important: 9th grade students spend 3/4 of their first year sampling 1-3 weeks of different vocations, doing a small project in each, before finalizing their vocational selection.
This to me is at the heart of what school should be: exposing students to concepts they didn't know existed, in a direct hands on manner.
Personal Example: I arrived at the school as a 9th grader knowing I wanted to major in computer science having attended at that point 2 years of after school classes at that school already. However, I still had to go through the discovery track. One 2 week block of that discovery track involved printing my own personalized and bound notepads. 1 week of graphics design and computer aided typesetting followed by 1 week of production on offset 4 color printing presses including making the plates, doing the print run, sheering and finally binding the edges. I also did a couple of weeks in auto mechanics group, learning how tear down and reassemble a 2 stroke engine and how to fix dents and paint a car (I still remember my first day in the auto body class from the shock I received. The instructor had us group of ~12 students in front of a car while he talked about what we would do to "fix all these dents" all while tapping a hammer against his hand. When one student finally asked "which dents", the teacher proceeded to hit the car with the hammer! Shocking everyone, and into the resulting silence he said "THESE dents".

9th graders by age and experience may not have a strong basis to make a choice on vocation if they have never experienced some of the possibilities. Even though I still ended up in the computer science group, I still greatly appreciate all the trades and activities I was able to experience.

5) Apprenticeship collaboration opportunities existed for 12 graders
Because of the 1 week class / 1 week shop schedule, there were industry paid apprenticeship opportunities for excelling students by the 12 grade. In these programs, rather than attending shop during your scheduled week you might spend part of all of your week working out on an actual job site, workshop, or office, as an apprentice. Your education would still be supervised and progress checked by the instructor with a strong possibility of a job offer at the end.

6) This school was not incompatible with also going to university, though it certainly reduced the immediate need.
Students completed their 12th year and graduated with two certificates: High school diploma and a vocational certificate. They completed school with marketable skills and as this was a public school as opposed to a university, no debt.
As it was I chose to go to university after high school, all ready having strong software development skills and training in large task self directed work, but only attended for 2 years before joining a start up tech company as employee #3, full time.

7) My school wasn't "local", it covered a region of 16 towns, each of which had their own classic high school.
I had a 1 hour bus ride each way to attend this regional school. Even though it was a public school, I had to apply and be accepted in order to attend. Additionally, the school always had a nuclear option of expulsion back to the local high school for students who, for whatever reason, were incompatible with the curriculum format offered. This option was rarely used but available if no other recourse existed.

8) There's no reason "vocational training" can't include so called white collar jobs:
Any job is a vocation, so this format could provide foundational training for doctor, lawyer, business management, or any other white collar work. It is just the bias of "those people who get their hands dirty are worth less than those who make decisions" elitism.

====
Conclusion: Aside from inertia, how hard "change" always is, and the perceptional bias of looking down on vocational workers, I really don't understand why this type of school is not more prevalent. Well, there is of course the monetary aspect: Universities want income! Additionally USA school funding is often tied to property taxes, creating a financial disconnect between the education and the employers since where you live isn't where you work, due to among other things zoning rules.
====
OK, this was way too long. Sorry, your video pushed one of my buttons....

[PalmyraSchwarz]

Hi Ashton, I like your deep drilling on various topics, but they all show a good level.

[americanexpat]

As fellow American who has worked with Germans and in Germany throughout my career, you present many of the same views that I migrated to over time. Keep up the great work!! I wish we had some form of their apprenticeship system in the US and could provide dignity to blue collar workers. Having said that, I think you are selling your countrymen short. These are two different cultures. Germany is a ‘rule-based’ culture and the apprenticeship system fits logically into their system. Americans are much more ‘result-orientated’. What I mean by that is that we really don’t care how many diplomas or certificates you have, it’s can you get the job done?

Having run oil refineries all around the world, which are very complicated technical places, I’ve always said that when I am facing a difficult problem I want a German on my team. But I also want an American. I want the German for their technical knowledge. However, I want the American because we are the most ‘out of the box’, pragmatic thinkers in the world and are those that are most likely to challenge the status quo. Both skills sets are necessary to solve difficult problems.

[Andrew-puze]

Having trained at a university hospital to become a state examined nurse I later moved via architecture to medical IT, now working in a general structural engineering office.
But on a side note (and due to the experience of architectural planning and building) seeing your bathroom there is a glaring omission for any bathroom on the continent for the last 20 years that has a little bit of space : a bidet, a side from the main reason for any woman, it is simply useful for washing the feet, the toddler or whatever, any one who has used it usually never goes back to a bathroom without it, even the sceptics who first miss the use of it, there must be one per flat. The second washbasin you would very soon see as not required. Next time ..

[rolflin]

we have something similar at spain. its called "formacion profesional"(professional education) and "formacion dual"(study and work/learn/practice at the same time), businees usually select the best workers on that training system and pay some part the bill, the rest its government funded

Not everyone wants to go to university and well skilled professionals are very needed at our industry, metal, IT, electicians, renovable energy systems and so on...

Basque country its very industrial like germany so this kind of education is working very well

[luislau]

You just open up a very deep and interesting topic. I am from the USA and have lived in Germany 6 years, and 4 in China. Briefly I would make a comment that Germany's economic system is more humanistic [mistakenly called socialist] where there is immense laws and regulations gears to protect the consumer. In the contrary the American economic system is totally capitalistic, (free enterprise). The fostering of investment and profits are the ultimate goals disregarding everything else.

[thomasbaro]

A teacher once told me: “You can’t build a house with 50 architects.” That statement really stuck with me. You need trade jobs as much as the academic jobs for a functioning economy.

Today, I look at people with vocational training with the upmost respect and value the expertise and experience that come along with such a training.

I fully acknowledge that there is a need for a university education but to believe that an academic career is the only path is a dangerous misconception.

However, in Germany especially after 1968 there was a tendency to emphasize the academic track. I guess this is why my teacher - back in the early 90‘s - made the statement above.

Nowadays I see three major tracks of education at least in my industry: vocational training, duale Hochschule “dual college” and the university track.

So maybe you want to take a closer look into the duale Hochschule System as well to further broaden your understanding of the educational system in Germany. In short, duale Hochschule means that a company hires a student. The student pursues an academic program for in total 3 years, e.g. at the duale Hochschule Baden-Württemberg (DHBW). However, within these three years the student also works in the company learning the trades of his profession directly.

In the end you end up with a professionally trained academic that knows his way around in the company.

[mrx]

In the US people seem to think anybody can do every job if he just puts effort and work in it. But reality is, not everybody is college / university material. Some people are just not well suited and/or intelligent enough for academic jobs. But they could do well in trades and do a good job there. It would not make much sense for them to pay high tuitions for college degree for which they are not really capable. It has to be mentioned that several professions which in the US need a college degree, while in Germany are just apprenticeships, such as nursing for example.

[LordNecron]

The vocational training has been on a decline for a few years, with employers only wanting graduates qualified to visit university for even the worst and lowest jobs. And currently, companies are whining about 'no workers' and 'we do not find apprentices'. And when they got apprentices/trainees, those they got had not put much effort into their education and are demotivated.

Alongside is the issue of employers who train apprentices seeing those as cheap full on labor, treating them like shit, and cling to the low 'trainee pay', which is disproportionate to what they often demand. A few years ago, I had an apprentice dropped on me. He should have been trained and qualified in the operation of computer controlled machinery, par his education and training plan. What he REALLY had done in 2 of the 3 years was: Been trained to hand grind stone edges (part of his 1st year, but only half of it), and packing up workpieces. His 3rd year was his final, and I basically had to get him up to scratch within 6 months (the last 6 are exam preparation and theory school out of town).

[rogerf]

It should be tried in the US to find out if and how it would work. I often ask why the US is trying to invent the wheel with everything when we have models that are working so well in other countries.

[smaragdwolf]

constructive critism:
- Abitur, not Arbitur
- yellow on bright ground isnt a good Choice^^
- Berufschule isnt part of the normal Schoolsystem anymore, despite its name. You sign a Contract with a Company (after sending an application with your grades from school, passing a test provided by the Company and a personal Conversation. That are the obstacles before you are accepted as apprentice.) for your Vocational training and while the practical education is within the Company (or a network of Companies), the theoretical part is teached in the Berufsschule. So its already part of your Worklife. Some Companies only offer Vocational Training, others keep you in the Company after you finished the Training.

Germany motivated parents and students to seek University-degrees too. Thats part of the reason why we have a lack of Workforce today^^ We have many People with College/University degrees.... but that means they are overqualified for "mere" trade jobs. Companies often dont want to hire overqualified people, because these people demand more Salary for a Job that they probably cant do properly, because their education is more of a theoretical understanding. It would be a loss for both, Employer and Employee.
Companies have to educate/adapt new Employees to their actual Workplace. But if there isnt much basic practical knowledge, it would mean re-education - which is more time consuming.
An Employee with a high degree would be bored fast or have trouble to keep up with the Tasks, because they are not familiar with it. In short, they wouldnt be happy and maybe leave the Company soon.

The general Problem with high Degrees is, in my mind, the following: Lets say you study for a certain Job. But everyone else in your Class studies for this job too. Not only in your University, but in dozens/hundreds of Colleges/Universities in the entire Country. General example: Lets say there are 10.000 people with the needed degree for this but there are only 500 avaible Job offers for this.
The difference in your actual level of Knowledge isnt so big, that there are only 500 of you who are actually qualified. So...how do you make sure, that youre the one who gets one of the 500 Jobs and that youre not one of the 9500 people who studied 4 years for nothing? Thats the kind of Competition that leads to unhealthy behaviour and suffering.
The Companies have so many People to choose from, that they could ask for any kind of extra Tasks or reduced Salary, until they found the 500 who are willing enough to degrade themself for a Job, that will probably never bring enough money to pay back student loans.
(This is just my Opinion and maybe an exaggeration).

[TremereTT]

it's not program. it's also mit realy vocational training... the translation would be apprentice.
apprentices get taught by a master of the trade.
The trades govern themselfs and Set nation wide standards. like a guild would do for a City... but now they do it Nation wide via a trade chamber.
The whole system is a Tradition. in some places trades men of certain trades get free stay and meal if they are banned from their home City to travel and work... for free...
It's all about Tradition.

[michaelmedlinger]

Interesting. When I was in high school, we originally had only agriculture as a vocational training course (do you know Future Farmers of America? Does it still exist, I wonder?), but while I was there, they added automotive mechanics. A few years after I graduated, these programs erupted, and I was amazed to hear all the vocational programs being offered. My mother taught Vocational Office Education for at least 15 years, which was very much like the German system. It was a two-year program. In the first year, the students were in her classroom all morning, then went back to the classroom in the afternoon. Second-year students were in the classroom in the morning, then went to a company to work in „real life“ in the afternoon. Part of my mother‘s job was to find jobs for these second-year students every year. Since it was generally part of the idea that any student who did well in the job would then receive a full-time job on graduation, this could be a difficult proposition. She couldn‘t necessarily go back to the same employers!
The morning students spent their time learning how to use all the many office machines and other equipment that were in use at the time, how to layout pamphlets and brochures, accounting (although she required the high school accounting class as a prerequisite for taking the course, etc.). She retired in spring 1985 - so she left just as PCs were starting to appear in offices. Much of what she taught has long been completely obsolete.
My niece did cosmetology during high school, which was at about the same time.
I haven‘t had any contact with the school since my mother retired, so I don‘t know if they still have these programs. But it seems to me that I remember someone saying they had been cut back significantly, which would be in line with what you have said.

[cultusdeus]

The are too many vested interests in American education for this to happen. But it would be great I agree. I have known many men and women who went to university in America and were miserable in the lecture hall.

[jabuknesselviech]

Just wanted you to know it's "Abitur", not Arbitur. You misspelled it in your picture.

[channel_markb]

Really interisting. And yeah it's true children of highly educated people are more likely to choose to graduate. And this is not regarding their iq. Their parents are pushing them more in that direction. I guess this is common to different cultures. 🤔😁 As a parent my focus was not on the success in a general opinion way, success is to have a job you are happy to do so. And it worked out well.
To change the trade job education in the US, I guess, would be a cultural challenge. As I am working for an US company, I made my experience to explain a German apprenticeship to US HR staff. Jesus. 🤣 It seems that everything must be trained in a short time and the main point is, that the employee working on the job. But in my opinion this works not out. They are working less efficient, if they are not well educated. So it is more effective to train and educate for a longer time and earn more efficient work time which safes time in long-term. That's all about invest into the future. But this is not the common mindset I discovered at my US colleagues. This may be not applicable to most in the US, it is just my experience.

[ralfweissenborn]

I think the biggest difference between the US and Germany is the way they look at the students themselves. In the USA, the student is a customer to whom educational institutions sell the product "education" dearly. In Germany, the student is an investment in the future. The state and business put money into their hands to give students the opportunity to become well-paid workers and taxpayers.

Transferring the German system to the USA one-to-one would be very difficult. Getting Americans to do things that are quintessentially un-American isn't even the biggest problem. You would have to get all American states to set educational standards together and for the whole USA. You would have to get American business to put money and people into the program, and you would have to strengthen American unions. Have fun!😱

[matrix]

Germany also provides something that is called "the 3rd education track". (brace yourself, this gets messy). I have been first to "Hauptschule", cause my Mom didnt care fore the selection process in the first place. However, at the end of the Hauptschule I wanted to go on to Realschule. That is possible and its called "the special 10th grade". This was even a specialized Economic School "Wirtschaftsschule" that is placed on the level of a Realschule. After successfully finishing it, I did an apprentice ship in a Bank. Cause i have been to a Wirtschaftsschule I was even considered like someone who had Abitur from the Gymansium cause my economic knowledge was so enhanced compared to the general Realschule. For the record, my math was very bad cause of that, cause i only had financial math and bookkeeping. Well, I finished the apprenticeship and then the 3rd education track was open to me. There is something called "Berufsoberschule" (vocational highschool). You could do there the 12th and 13th grade. (meaning the apprenticeship counted as the 11th grade). With the 12th grade, which i did, you have a specialized titel to go to university of applied sciences. With the 13th grade and a 2nd foreign language you can have the general Abitur and study even medicine ... So I did the 12th grade cause i knew I wanted to do "informationsystems and management" (Wirtschaftsinformatik), which is a mix of business and IT. At the time it was only available at the university of applied sciences (or the military which i ruled out). So I went from the lowest possible school to a university degree with a bachelor. I could have done a master as well, but started work instead. Going from a bank apprentice to work in marketing IT nowadays. I had all chances even afterwards. I took it. to be fair I dont know if many people do this route. but the German government made it possible. probably the best thing they did in a minute.