When Analogies are Taken Too Far

Chris Date joins Leighton Flowers for a LIVE discussion about the Calvinistic interpretation of the potter/clay analogy in Romans 9 being compared to robots and puppets. To see the back and forth on this topic you may want to watch the videos below:

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[melissasepahrom]

The gospel used to be simple until I encountered Calvinism!

[bobbyadkins]

I'm glad we have someone like Leighton to explain why Calvinism is so unbiblical. He does a really terrific job at it.

[TKK]

Chris, the frustrating part of this discussion was your extreme incredulity of Leighton’s pushback. Yes, you responded to his objections, but the reason he kept objecting and why the side chat was so upset is because we reject your responses as adequate because you often brought in a distinction without a difference or appealed to irrelevant distinctions. So, when Leighton would push back on your responses asking you to explain or even bringing the same objection, you would say something like “I’ve answered this a bagillion times”. Yes you have answered, and now you’re being challenged on your answer. You seem to think an answer is automatically a sufficient answer.

[SeanSteele]

Leighton, you deserve an award for your patience. I honestly couldn't finish this video though. I'm sure Chris is a good guy, but his frustration just seemed to blind him to the obvious and made the entire decision unwatchable. Bailed at about 45 with a migraine due to his constant push backs against basic logic.

[LizCanKnit]

This was exhausting. Chris is very intelligent. He is passionate. He makes some excellent points. But, he has a superiority complex and he couches it in pleas to use correct language. He is dismissive and his argument is just los on someone like me who is here to learn not decide a winner. He would ask for proof, I would submit this discussion in contrast to his discussion with WarrenMcGrew on hell. . He was relaxed, funny and I gleaned much from that discussion. This was just semantics, doublespeak and linguistic gymnastics. I give him a 10/10 on the uneven bars.

[SusanMorales]

I appreciate hearing Chris push back on things Calvinists say he disagrees with. It’s informative and fair.

[mattd]

Chris' whole argument can be summarized as this, "I don't like how you are explaining what I believe, Leighton. It is not because it is not true, I just don't like it."

[Soteriology]

Chris asked for Calvinists who use the potter/clay analogy to support determinism:

In the Potter’s Freedom, James White wrote this on page 44-45 (focus on last sentence):

“There can be no clash of wills between the Potter and the pots. The Potter’s will is free and unfettered by any considerations the clay may present. What is more, the pot is forced to recognize the active involvement of the potter. This is seen in the argumentum ad absurdum. ‘Or the thing you are making say, ‘He has no hands.’’ The thing ‘being made’ cannot deny the very hands that are forming and fashioning it’s very shape! And yet this is the very attitude of man today, there is no Creator, and all evidence of His existence must be immediately dismissed. And even amongst those who embrace the Christian faith, there is a hesitance to confess God as Creator, God as determiner of my shape and my destiny.”

That’s the first one I looked at so far.

[mattd]

The vibe I get from Chris about the robot analogy from Leighton is basically Chris doesn't like it and would make up excuses to try to sound as if he has valid reasons for challenging it.

[dustinpaulson]

"Your folks are being mean in the comments."

Sorry. We were authored to be that way. Who are you, o Calvinist, to talk back to God?

[dustinpaulson]

There was some smuggling in going on here... The Wandavision analogy was nobody's but Chris' and he smuggled it in with the other analogies from Leighton in order to use a discredited analogy to discredit the other ones that are not discredited. Guilt by association falacy

[joedejesus]

Chris is the literal definition of the verse that says “claiming to be wise, they became fools....”

There can never be a 1 to 1 even analogy. The point of an analogy is to describe an aspect of a greater picture. When Jesus says “the kingdom of heaven is like..., ” he’s not using it to make a 1 to 1 analogy, he’s trying to describe an aspect of the kingdom in order for people to understand what he’s trying to get across. Chris is not approaching this conversation in good faith. We all know robots and humans aren’t 1 to 1. What IS 1 to 1 is the determined actions of a character in a book by the author, or the determined actions of a robot by the programmer, or the determined actions of a human by how Chris doesn’t understand this is really confusing and weird. It’s a really bad look

[kevinkleinhenz]

33 minutes in and my head is spinning. I hope this gets better.

[mattd]

Love how Chris just ad hoc claim that there is no risk of someone misinterpreting the Potter/clay analogy as meaning the clay is entirely passive.

[jordandthornburg]

I really think Chris is on his way out of calvinism. Keep praying for him

[macthemessenger]

This dude Cris can’t see the contradiction in his author analogy

[yvonnedoulos]

57:26 - What does it matter if God is ‘in time’ or ‘outside of time’ on Chris’s view? How does this make theistic determinism any better?

Using the author analogy, also, makes no difference. The author is still the author of the events of the story which make the author culpable and not the character.

[grahck]

So let me see if I get this right. The Potter/Clay analogy isn't speaking about determinism, but talking about God having the authority to do with as he pleases (ie: Sovereignty). However, Calvinists define Sovereignty as God's meticulous control over his creation (ie: determinism). Sooo ... what's the point again?

[TreBrickley]

“...I’m confused as to why you choose not to recognize a distinction...” (paraphrase) of the determinist in this discussion 🤣

[icewolfelite]

Brother Leighton, I understand that Chris made the comment that you supposedly have a mean audience, and this comment could come across that way (although I don't mean for it to), and I know you guys are friends, but your patience, calm demeaner, and cordiality was incomparable to Chris' behavior in this video. It was so frustrating to watch him angrily shut you down, use demeaning words, misrepresent your arguments, and fail to recognize his own inconsistencies. He talked over you many times, and seemed generally mean-spirited. But I felt that I needed to let you know how much I appreciated your kind, and excellent handling of this debate. I've listened to so many of your videos, and you've been a great blessing and encouragement to me. Keep up the great work. God bless!