Fantasy Humans Aren't Really Humans

Humans exist in plenty of alternate worlds that might be considered "fantasy", yet most of the time they don't seem to act like actual humans.

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[soarel]

I think the issue is that demihuman fantasy “races”, rather than being entirely alien to us, are written more like variants of humanity, so many aspects of humanity get foisted onto them, leaving “humans” as less multifaceted beings. The more noble and mythical traits of humanity get foisted onto elves, the more warlike and industrious aspects onto orcs or dwarves, etc.

[benhooper]

"This is the most ambitious crossover in History"

- Julius Caesar, upon breaching the gates of Mordor

[InquisitorThomas]

I think it comes down to the fact that most Fantasy Races aren’t really alien/different from Humans, they’re a reflection of certain elements of humanity. In a setting where Orcs are around humans are less violent and warlike because Orcs are pretty much a fantasy race based on our most warlike and barbaric tendencies, having equally barbaric humans just make Orcs people with Green skin and tusks.

[skoomazan]

I think the Witcher series has the most realistic humans. Going through the towns and cities you see the types of people that exist in those times, rough people with all the dark qualities of humanity such as intolerance, treachery, and greed. But you also see people of honor, compassion, and understanding, and everything in between.

Ahh the warm messy circle of humanity.

[manumainio]

Ferelden? I suggest playing the game again. The human noble story literally starts with your jealous vassal slaughtering your family and usurping your lands. And the city-elf story starts with snobby humans coming to have some "fun" with the filthy lower class elves living in a ghetto. And these are just examples out of the first 30 minutes into the game. Hell, the biggest plot point of the game is how one of the kings generals leaves him to die on a battlefield to grab the throne, in the process dooming the kingdom to ruin with an army of monsters approaching.

[Jandau]

Counterpoint to the assertion that fantasy Humans are too nice - The presence of endless external enemies (or at least competition) served to foster cooperation and tolerance within the species. They literally couldn't afford to be as backstabbing if they wanted to avoid extinction.

Counterpoint to the assertion that IRL armies of adequate technological level would be vastly more effective - Roman Legions, Attila's Horsemen, etc. are all adapted to and specialized for fighting other Humans. A fantasy Human army would have to be a lot more generalist in its approach in order to adapt to the vastly greater variety of threats. This means that from our perspective of exclusively anti-Human warfare they might seem inadequate, but it's just as possible that a tight Legionary formation would simply make them a tempting target for a Fireball or some such...

[reddude]

With the way in-groups work, being human in our world doesn’t put you in an in-group. When there are orks, and elves, and dwarves, and goblins, suddenly humans start to look out for each other more. Suddenly humans are part of a common, meaningful in-group. Humans in fantasy are usually cruel, just not towards other humans.

[MonkeyJedi]

Re: LOTR humans, the movies leave out a LOT of "evil" humans. Dunlendings, Umbarans, Easterlings, Haradrim, and a spectrum of people across the scale of morality here and there in "good" populations.

[zacosner]

You’re confusing “humans” with “protagonists”. The dunlanders allied with Saruman were also humans. The black numenoreans and pirates allied with Sauron were also human, etc. the good guys are portrayed as displaying virtuous qualities in most human narratives.

[arckmage]

I think sometimes we forget that there was only 1 Alexander, 1 Attila, 1 Genghis. Those are the equivalent of rampaging orc hordes. For the most part, humans have tried their best to be in peace with each other. And when a Darius, or an Augustus conquered a people. If he didn't wipe them all out, he integrated them into the kingdom.
We enjoy the stories of knights going into battle all the time, we forget that most of the time they were just trying to get a decent meal and a quiet bed to sleep in.

[SQmaniac]

Actually, the kings of Numenor became exactly the same kind of conquerors as Rome and others did... and Sauron played them like a cheap kazoo.
It's part of the reason Numenor went the way of Atlantis, and why Sauron was able to gather allies among other human Kingdoms.

[HumanityAsCode]

Isn't the Lord of the Rings mostly about how 95% of people can't resist the temptation of evil. Not just humans, but elves and dwarves too. (Orcs didn't really get to choose so, you know)

[alexanderiles]

I think we only get a snapshot of the political set up in Middle Earth. Tolkien does suggest towards a more warlike past between the various human kingdoms, you just have to look at the wild men and their relationship with Rohan. There's plenty to suggest that the same Character exists there. (Sorry edited as I used dictation software)

[makaan]

"on the brink of extinction" except not really. There's lots of humans fighting for Sauron. He wants to dominate them, to rule over them, not kill them all.

[henrykkeszenowicz]

Cyrus the Great was actually the closest real man to those fantasy people, he was a genuinely good and tolerant king who was greeted not as a conqueror but as liberator.

But I'd totally love to see him defeating Mordor.

[withinmyscope]

It was a regular occurrence in tolkien's books that elves and humans would just go on regular campaigns against the Orcs, not necessarily reacting in defense

[chaosvolt]

>humans aren't humans because they aren't acting like the Imperium of Man

Well this seems like a spicy hot take to me.

[LedosKell]

King Perenolde of Alterac: "I'm going to betray humanity for green booty."
The Alliance: *literally razes his kingdom to the ground in the middle of one of the greatest wars humanity has collectively faced*
King Perenolde two minutes later: "I'm gonna do it again."

[Logan]

I thought this video was going to be about an actual argument that due to the superhuman strength and agility of fantasy humans, they weren’t actually humans. Like, how a human can get so strong from fighting weaker enemies, building up strength and proficiency with no upper limit. Oh well.

[Dark_Jaguar]

There's one obscure piece of lore with Tolkien, and that goes down to his general belief that history is a long slow path of degredation. Humans "back then" really were superior. Heck, ELVES used to be better. Silmarillion elves were basically powered by anime tropes having thunderous fights with the original dark lord while the land exploded around them. In middle earth, history is a battle not to restore what was lost- but to prevent losing any more with each passing generation. I don't personally share this viewpoint, but I do love the legendarium for what it is.

But hey- we do have better humans mixed in with the terrible humans here in the real world and always have. For every ruthless conquerer there's a Mr. Rogers.