Beauvoir and Contemporary Dating (with Dr. Ellie Anderson)

Dr. Ellie Anderson, Philosophy professor and co-host of the Overthink podcast, discusses her work on Simone de Beauvoir and contemporary feminist philosophy, social psychology, and sociology, mostly drawing from her 2017 conference paper "Beauvoir's 'Woman in Love' on the Millenial Dating Scene". While some of Beauvoir's work in The Second Sex might now seem dated, Ellie discusses how much of her analysis resonates with contemporary social science of love and dating. "Woman dreams of reconciling independence and love," Beauvoir writes—Ellie breaks down how this is as far from reality for women today as it was for the women Beauvoir was writing about in 1949.

Graphics and editing by Aaron Morgan

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[galoise]

One important aspect that needs to be brought into account is class. High-status men almost have a monopoly on the dating market, especially from its liberalization. What you talked about is mainly the experience of this part of men. Most men on dating apps barely get any dates and don't get to choose.
Of course if we just look at this part of potential male dating partners, then the relationship is still pretty much patriarchal. This might not be true for lower status men.

[danielguzman]

I love your work Ellie. You break down these readings in a very easy to grasp manner. Love you. I hope you continue posting more material. ❤

[nicholassdc]

That was amazing, Dr Ellie! Such a thorough and clearly laid out video. You've managed to give shape to so many concepts individually, and link them all together in an overarching framework that not only makes intuitive sense, but are also observable and measurable. Answers a lot of the questions that I wish I could, but never had the right words to.

And as someone who is yet to muster the courage to read such an influential writer as de Beauvoir, you've made it seem less like a purely intellectual exercise. Thank you! I'm not only subscribing to your channel, but I'll be adding your podcast to my subscription list.

[julienrodriguez]

Happy international women's day, Dr. Anderson. I share many of your frustrations with contemporary dating. Perhaps dating is very different for millennials vs. zoomers/zillennials such as myself, but my impression is that men, women, and non-binary folks are similarly dissatisfied by online dating. Hookup culture favors the emotionally detached, regardless of gender. In a culture where caring is creepy, commitment requires tremendous vulnerability, again regardless of gender.

[artemisXsidecross]

Thank you Dr. Ellie Anderson for this topic as it should be more discussed. The evidence of patriarchy being a species draw down and not a partnership model is in evidence on a larger scale beyond mere gender interaction.

[elizabethh]

This is an absolutely incredible video and has helped me connect & organise so many different observations I've had for the first time, thank you!

[koftu]

Ugh. Looks like there's some truth to the idea that modern dating sucks for everybody...the contemporary culture of masculinity you describe isn't healthy for anybody, including men!

Folks, life is short: Be vulnerable, don't waste time playing games.

[u]

4:07 Not sure where or how this was derived but the key word here is “perceived”.

The seeming claim of men worrying their female partners would become emotionally attached is exactly the same fear as the reported fears of the women. It is just perceived and expressed in a deflected way. One wouldn’t be afraid of “clingyness”, others wanting more relational closeness and emotional connection if they were not themselves afraid of becoming desirous of an emotional connection.

Human sex is by its nature is pleasure through proximity seeking. Its physical aspect requires touch, its psycho-spiritual requires psychological contact.

[SoVidushi]

Came here after I read your twitter reply about modern dating. So glad I found this podcast/channel!

[olegpiruyan]

How greater discrepancy of women experience than men between ideal and actual hookups suggests "retrenchment of patriarchal power"? If anything it tells us more about women's expectations.

[Delenda_Est]

Eh, well I can't be the first in the comments to say "Not all men..." It is certainly true that the methodological individualist anthropology of Capitalist-Modernity has shifted the basis of societal roles from status to contract, and thereby has enormously freed up the dating market for "consumer choice." The invention of the pill was a force-multiplier for this "deregulation" of bi-lateral contract in heterosexual relationships. But "late capitalism, " let's say, has had a few different pronounced effects on sexual selection: 1) increasing wealth inequality means that competition for social rank depends increasingly on multi-generational wealth (which is hardly just financial, but includes intellectual capital as well as social capital of various kinds) 2) Modern individualism and autonomy encourage women (in addition to men) who benefit from this capital to further increase it 3) the economy of sexual selection is still governed by the "like seeks like" principle that operated in the fixed social hierarchy of pre-Modern times, but now it is configured in terms of the "meritocracy" 4) this new meritocratic sorting-mechanism is significantly complicated by differentially inherited female beauty which 5) can be leveraged by women - including higher-capitalized women, even today - to ally themselves with those men who remain the differentially advantaged legatees of multigenerational capital-accumulation (capital here in all its variety).

And there is another, very important factor at work here: the establishment of the next generation. Probably the imbalance in desire for commitment between the sexes is not something specially culturally created, but instead comes down to the fact that hetero women have a greater baseline interest in having children than men do, just as a psychological feature of the kind of primate we are. Children needless to say are very energy-intensive, beginning with carrying a baby to term in the first place. Hetero women are naturally disposed to seek commitment in their male partners, for fundamentally economic reasons.

But there is the rub. Not all men are equal - and in a market where everyone has, in principle, the opportunity to enter into contract with anyone else, all women will preferentially partner with the men in, let's say, the top quintile of inherited "capital assets" (including everything from good grooming to competitive drive). But in a universal market, there are not enough of these men available - and men know this.

Women have a poor man's version of this same variety-drive, on the dating apps. Women have a differentially greater preference for commitment, but they don't want "commitment" from just _anybody._ Pretty much every woman with above-average physical attractiveness has a 2nd job when they open the dating app, as they sift through the abundance of offers from the men (who already outnumber the women as a population on the app), seeking not just someone who is suitable but who is the _best possible_ candidate. Rest assured, there are lots of men there who go for a long time without even the opportunity to get ghosted. Of course, it is also true that late capitalism has also made these men less suitable as partners, in absolute terms.

Anyway, the bottom line here is that it is Not All Men who are actually the subject of the discussion, when women are busied about their hermeneutic-labor.

[artemisXsidecross]

Sexuality known in pop and R&B music as a ‘Mystery Dance’ will not be rounded up by language into a binary ideal. Its depth of perception may be another ‘mystery wrapped in an enigma’.
Some of the comments of denial being made show how well she had succeeded in making her explanation and view clear.
Good work Dr. Anderson 👍

[Officialhelpkenet]

I don't really see how men not valuing highly educated women whereas women value highly educated men gives men more options. For highly educated men, yes. But for men with little education it creates an asymmetry where men value all women while women only value some men. This is also consistent with many men's experience on dating apps where women have a lot of options and can choose the best while men who don't know how to "market" themselves barely get any matches.

[EmperorOfTheDamned]

Hello Ellie. I started reading Judith Butler's literature; specifically her book Senses of the Subject. I like how she takes on Merleau-Ponty's perspective of perception.

I am trying to indulge myself in learning more of the Feminist Phenomenology, so would you have any recommendations for what I should start out reading? I am a straint man who wants to get a better and objective view on Feminist ideologies.💯

[tedankhamenbonnah]

I wish I had seen this a few months ago... very illuminating.

[ancientloser]

I don’t agree with the generalizations here at all. Even the hook up culture applies to a relatively small fraction of the western population. The men who take advantage of that culture don’t constitute a good representation of the rest of the men either. That probably goes for the women as well.

[koreighlee]

About to send this to my bf and start a fight — thank you! 😅

[pipersolanas]

Its not dated at all for most women worldwide

[Reed]

I don’t know if you have a video on this already, but I’m very curious as to what she thought about same-sex relationships. Especially since you mentioned she had a chapter about it.

[BorisSudakov]

Interesting release. Thank you very much! Dating is truly built on heteronormativity, which is toxic in all its forms. But when we talk about the confrontation between a man and a woman, isn’t this also heteronormativity? Isn’t this conflict also heteronormativity?