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Government And Corporate Spying Are Equally Dangerous

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Many Americans are distrustful of the government. Therefore they are very concerned about government surveillance. Yet these same Americans, who abhore the government spying on them, are much less concerned when private corporations do the same thing. Even when those corporations are spying on Americans for the government.
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Sam Seder: We should worry about the government, not corporate surveillance. It seems to me, there's really no difference because any corporation I mean you mentioned Ring has been essentially used as a surveillance tool by police departments across the country. There's actually like a third party that essentially networks these things and then provides it to police departments. But I would imagine that the NSO group that did the Pegasus that they could sell it to could sell to anybody. In fact, corporations are increasingly being used by government agencies as a way of getting around legal restrictions on what they can accumulate. And they just go and buy it from these corporations instead of setting up the surveillance mechanism themselves
Heidi Boghosian: That's totally right. Corporations don't have to adhere to the strictures of our constitution. I think something like 80 percent of our intelligence operations have been outsourced to private entities for a long time. And there I see them working hand in hand. I think the perception among some people is “I don't want you to know hands off me, I don't want to be spied on, I don't want government interference”. And yet those same people aren't as suspicious or maybe aren't as aware of how hand in hand big business is in fact with government agencies. I know that years ago I used to work at the national lawyers guild. We did a lot of work defending or observing protesters at mass demonstrations and rallies after 9/11. We were acutely aware of the many different ways that the government with private support was monitoring and spying on activists. I think I became interested in this field in part because of that but the more I read about it the more I saw that it's not just activists, it's all facets of society. Especially with the commodification of our data which is a multi-billion dollar industry. Corporations will essentially do whatever they can do to get more information about us because that information translates into profits for their bottom line. I just wanted to highlight the fact that they are so interconnected that people need to start being equally suspicious and vigilant about how corporations do intrude on our lives. Again in a more kind of wild wild west fashion given that they're not highly regulated and privacy protections, including in how our devices are actually built. They're built with an eye toward making us more addicted to clicking more and more and to linking to more sources so more people get our information.
Sam Seder: I think people assume that if it's illegal for the I don't know the DEA or the highway patrol or whomever it is it doesn't matter what agency if it's illegal for them to surveil and get this information without a warrant or without any cause. They assume that it would be illegal for them to buy it from somebody who is allowed to get it by signing off a term and service sheet. We put these apps on my computer and or my phone and it sends this data and these agencies can buy it. there is no restriction on that whatsoever i don't think people un you know appreciate that dynamic.
Heidi Boghosian: That's exactly right it's sort of you see on old police procedurals. The lawyer says well I can't get that information or the police officer says i don't have a warrant. But they find a way around it so they get it through another means that is legal. We see that kind of end-run being done every time we click on something. So I hope that people are just being more aware of that and I think we're getting the cookie warnings every time we go to a site. people have the option of making a choice. we're coming around to sensitizing individuals to take more control over their personal information. but as you say if we want to go to a site and we need information quickly we click on the i approve. we click on the terms of service without reading the fine details. I think there has to be a seismic shift in business practices in that respect.
We stream our live show every day at 12 PM ET.
Sam Seder: We should worry about the government, not corporate surveillance. It seems to me, there's really no difference because any corporation I mean you mentioned Ring has been essentially used as a surveillance tool by police departments across the country. There's actually like a third party that essentially networks these things and then provides it to police departments. But I would imagine that the NSO group that did the Pegasus that they could sell it to could sell to anybody. In fact, corporations are increasingly being used by government agencies as a way of getting around legal restrictions on what they can accumulate. And they just go and buy it from these corporations instead of setting up the surveillance mechanism themselves
Heidi Boghosian: That's totally right. Corporations don't have to adhere to the strictures of our constitution. I think something like 80 percent of our intelligence operations have been outsourced to private entities for a long time. And there I see them working hand in hand. I think the perception among some people is “I don't want you to know hands off me, I don't want to be spied on, I don't want government interference”. And yet those same people aren't as suspicious or maybe aren't as aware of how hand in hand big business is in fact with government agencies. I know that years ago I used to work at the national lawyers guild. We did a lot of work defending or observing protesters at mass demonstrations and rallies after 9/11. We were acutely aware of the many different ways that the government with private support was monitoring and spying on activists. I think I became interested in this field in part because of that but the more I read about it the more I saw that it's not just activists, it's all facets of society. Especially with the commodification of our data which is a multi-billion dollar industry. Corporations will essentially do whatever they can do to get more information about us because that information translates into profits for their bottom line. I just wanted to highlight the fact that they are so interconnected that people need to start being equally suspicious and vigilant about how corporations do intrude on our lives. Again in a more kind of wild wild west fashion given that they're not highly regulated and privacy protections, including in how our devices are actually built. They're built with an eye toward making us more addicted to clicking more and more and to linking to more sources so more people get our information.
Sam Seder: I think people assume that if it's illegal for the I don't know the DEA or the highway patrol or whomever it is it doesn't matter what agency if it's illegal for them to surveil and get this information without a warrant or without any cause. They assume that it would be illegal for them to buy it from somebody who is allowed to get it by signing off a term and service sheet. We put these apps on my computer and or my phone and it sends this data and these agencies can buy it. there is no restriction on that whatsoever i don't think people un you know appreciate that dynamic.
Heidi Boghosian: That's exactly right it's sort of you see on old police procedurals. The lawyer says well I can't get that information or the police officer says i don't have a warrant. But they find a way around it so they get it through another means that is legal. We see that kind of end-run being done every time we click on something. So I hope that people are just being more aware of that and I think we're getting the cookie warnings every time we go to a site. people have the option of making a choice. we're coming around to sensitizing individuals to take more control over their personal information. but as you say if we want to go to a site and we need information quickly we click on the i approve. we click on the terms of service without reading the fine details. I think there has to be a seismic shift in business practices in that respect.
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