Did the WINNER of the Pro Tour actually CHEAT? - MTG Rules - MH3

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The Modern Horizons 3 Pro Tour has wrapped up, but it had a handful of cheating controversies. So, let's look into whether these players actually cheated or not thanks to the rules.

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Correction 14/7 - @ 2:30, I called this person at the table a Judge. This is not correct. I have just been informed they are a coverage spotter. They are purely there to relay lay score information and hand out tokens. THEY ARE NOT A JUDGE. They are not meant to correct play errors. However they can stop play and call a Judge over.

Tiniest correction - During the Missed Ring section (5:39), I said Simon cast Endurance at the END of Javiers turn. He actually cast it *in response* to the One Ring.

attackoncardboard
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Javier seems to not be able to catch a break! Poor dude, it's kinda "funny" all these situations happened to him

AndreaGiuseppeCastriotta
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I blame it on the judges here. Handing over the token? Dude you're there to prevent these things from happening ...

atheistmantis
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Magic is awesome in its own complex ways but man watching pro players at the highest competitive scene misplay or "cheat" feels really frustrating, specially knowing there are capable judges and bystanders that can call out this stuff or is it that they don't baby sit matches enough?

sebastiangomezbotero
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I get that the first guy having a history of cheating is a mitigating factor, but the presentation of "this guy unambiguously knew what he was doing and tried to cheat" vs the last guy's "absolutely not, there's no way he was doing that purposefully to cheat" is kinda two-faced. Especially since, unlike the first guy, there's no mention of interviews or anything else to indicate his mindset. There is some ambiguity there. Is he likely trying to cheat? Maybe not. Could he have been? Absolutely.

siubijeni
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Man the Judges really are the problem in both cases. MAYBE wizards removing incentives from judges was a bad idea after all

mumblingbeardedfreak
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I find it wild that the only difference between the sun cleanser being legal or illegal is that Javier didn’t announce the cast trigger. If he had, Simon would have been “cheating” by knowingly targeting a player with protection.

The especially sad thing about the Javie/Nielsen match is the relaxed vibe they had between each other. They are teammates and had played that match 20 times before they bumped into each other in the tournament. They played and talked with each other like it was just another game at the kitchen table. That relaxed environment allowed extremely important misplays to go unnoticed.

thejimshep
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Either if players are intentionally cheating or not, in these professional events judges should play attention at what players are doing since it s their job. In the goyf clip the judge hands the token to the player, while he should have instead pointed out the error. In the 3 scenarios i dont think it is a player issue but a lack of attention from the judges

Kuervoo_
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I'm Still not convinced that Bart actually cheated, and if feels like you assumed too much when explaining the results. I don't agree that people who cheat should ever be allowed to play in pro tour events, but it feels like you said "once a cheater, always a cheater' and brushed him aside, while completely giving Simon the benefit of the doubt.

bkll
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I think following rules without keeping the spirit of the rules in mind is silly.

wesleymitchell
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I feel like the "they are friends" arguement doesn't actually prove anything about whether it was intentional.

For the other guy, all we need to assume is that they are pro players and they ahould know whay their own cards do in order to judge it as intentional. Well, Endurance is one of the most played cards in Modern, there should be absolutely no excise why a pro would think it shuffles.

The no advantage part? Javier was looking for a supreme verdict that whole game. By shuffling a bunch of dead cards into the deck, you have now given yourself an advantage in reducing (even slightly) those odds.

Was he cheating? I'm not a mind reader, I can't tell. But every reaaon given as to why the other guy was cheating applies here.

Raithian
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Even if it technically wasnt cheating. Id bet my house he knew that he the other guy had protection and was knowingly trying to push the limit (simiular to a chalice check). I assume he was dead to right and that "soft cheat" was his only or most reasonable path to victory.... idk simon, i hear he is really nice but ive also herd hes kinda crappy to play vs and he apparently angle shoots, and if thats the case i wouldnt put it past him esp when you consider his run. Magic has a large enough RNG componet that its a bit of a red flag (to me) that he has top-8ed so many PT's basically in a row, the law of averages suggest you would just run bad off the top of your deck or have the opponet have the nuts enough times over those roughly 100 matches that you would miss out more than 1x...

Dragracingduleist
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This is where playing a bit slower than you think you should goes a long way. Where I’m from cheaters and assholes and toxic players abound. Gotta hold your ground.

lexist
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Lol, he did cheat, shuffling his deck was advantageous to him since Javier's out was finding supreme verdict, this was an open deck list Pro Tour btw. So 1 he broke a rule & 2 he gained advantage from it.

A Dude that consistently tops events and pulls shit like this at a high level event is most likely a cheater, to think otherwise is rather naive.

gustavoramirezjr
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Simon Nielson making the top 8 in 6 of his last 7 major tournaments and only narrowly missing out in the one he didn't is quite an impressive run. Reminds me of another happy-go-lucky pro player who enjoyed lots of success before being removed from the Hall of Fame and banned for cheating, Yuuya Watanabe.

Now, having lots of success is by no means proof of foul play, but it should at least subject that player to a bit more careful scrutiny. It just isn't likely that skill alone is enough to overcome both the randomness inherent to the game and other players' skill level on a sustained basis.

Simon Nielson isn't above cheating just because he's a likeable guy. In the case of the One Ring, we have evidence that he was aware of the One Ring's trigger but played the Suncleanser anyway to see if he could get away with it. If Javier doesn't notice it, he gains an advantage. If Javier does notice, nothing happens to Simon, the judges just instruct him to make a legal play. In other words, there was no risk to Simon trying to make an illegal play here.

By the letter of the law he didn't cheat, because tracking triggers is the responsibility of the player who controls them. However, he DID appear to knowingly make an illegal game action for advantage, which is part of the criteria for cheating, so the question is, which rule takes precedent over the other? I feel this missed trigger rule needs to be reevaluated, particularly with regard to bringing it in line with its digital formats, where missing triggers is impossible. For Simon or any other player to be able to take advantage of that because it's the opponent's responsibility to notice illegal plays is the equivalent of moving a pinned bishop to checkmate your opponent in chess. A legal game state should be preserved at all times.

KoshoShinogi
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Judge at the table: No, you're good, here's the status token. Judge after the round following that round: Oh yeah, you're dq'd for the thing I told you was okay.


Its never on the player when the Judge says it's good.

Barraind.Faylestar
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It took me a second to realize what bart did I just thought he said hay man I cast this it will die and come back with counter on it like you would with a friend at the table, no time to skip steps in a competition.

zentec
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I think it's highly suspicious to attempt to target Javier with the suncleanser. Simon acknowledged the trigger of the one ring by not attacking, indicating that he was aware of the effect. He then attempted to target Javier with suncleanser, but if you're aware of the one ring's effect, Javier would be an illegal target as a result of protection. Trying to target something you know is an illegal target, in the hopes that your opponent misses it, should be an intentional game rule violation, ergo cheating. I also believe that Javier taps his one ring with his finger to indicate the trigger right after he played it, but then forgot about it when the suncleanser targeted him. I think at the very least it's unsportsmanlike, but i also believe that Simon attempted to take illegal game actions and hope his opponent missed it, which should be considered cheating.

SenpuuNoMa
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3:38 If every pro knows this, then why didn't anyone else at the table notice it immediately?
Especially Javier, who would've gained an advantage if he did.

Taromisaki
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I don't actually agree with the missed trigger part.

That is to say, of course that is how the rules work, but they shouldn't.

Casting Suncleanser there under the assumption the opponent missed their trigger is just a dick move. As btw would be not calling out the trigger until it becomes relevant (which I would even consider a misrepresentation of the gamestate by not declaring your trigger when it happens).

I think the rules really need to be changed to be less "gotcha-y" and more about actual sportsmanlike conduct, aka playing the game properly rather than tricking your opponent into a violation.

Tacklepig