Why DANIEL is a FORGERY

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#apologetics #Paulogia #mythvision #MythVisionPodcast #mvp #dereklambert

[mlwsf]

Thank you for making these bite sized, easier to digest clips. Some of us don't have the focus, patience, or endurance to sit through some of the two plus hour presentations that you often have.

[CombatBadger]

I really appreciate folks like Derek and other prominent YouTubers for allowing those of us who grew up believing what we were told the opportunity to hear from others with various ideologies and beliefs. Even though folks like Richard Carrier and Bart Ehrman may not agree or see things eye to eye, just being exposed to their different beliefs and their reasoning behind them has been so helpful. Please continue to do the good work.

[icypirate]

Derek, I would be very interested in an MVP-Course on the book of Daniel and the Maccabees connection.

...and Enoch and it's influence on the Bible.

[jimmythompson]

I feel foolish for my former beliefs, but at least I know.

[katdenning]

💯 on the reinterpretation of the prophecy. I grew up in the Seventh-Day Adventist Church. Like many people, I didn’t know most of the church history until long after I’d left the faith. The SDA Church was a spinoff of the Millerite movement, which was centered in the prophecies of Daniel (8:14, specifically) and predicted Jesus would return in 1844. When no 2nd Coming occurred, a group (later the SDA church) declared a “misinterpretation” & that 1844 was more like the beginning of the end not the finale.

[kenludlow]

I would love to hear about how Constantine converting affected the growth of Christianity. Would it be just a small percent of the population or even died off completely?

[steveg]

Very early in this video, Richard Carrier mentions some article on this topic that he wrote. I expected to see a link to his article in the Description text, but I don't see it. What article is he referring to?

[blairmcian]

Has Dr. Carrier ever discussed/debated with Rabbi Tovia Singer regarding the case for Daniel being a forgery? Singer is convinced otherwise, of course.

[grumpylibrarian]

Is this a repost? I could swear I've commented on this one before.

This sort of research is where Dr. Carrier shines and why I respect him tremendously, despite disagreeing with him on mythicism. He is able to pull together multiple sources and explain and defend his position quite well. I have this blog post of his bookmarked, and I refer to it frequently.

I would disagree with one point I noticed this time around. I do not think the 30s CE were an especially "good" fit for a re-interpretation of the timing of Daniel 9. It was the *last* available fit. The better fit was starting from 539 BCE when Cyrus (not Darius the Mede) gave the decree that the jews could go home and rebuild Jerusalem. Ending the 62+7 weeks around the 30s CE required skipping Cyrus, skipping the decree of Artaxerxes I in 458/7 BCE, and settling on the warrant given to Nehemiah in 445/4 BCE, and usually fiddling with the calendar after that. I've seen people adjust the birth and death of Jesus to completely arbitrary and unsupported years to end this within days of his crucifixion, but the general "land in the 30s" would be independent of that. (And I would agree that our dating of the crucifixion even with an historical Jesus and even granting him being executed under Pilate wasn't necessarily at passover, certainly not the 31/33CE required to harmonize the timing between John and the synoptics, and could have been anywhere from 26-37CE.)

And this is in good part why there were several messianic figures, claims, revolts, and wars in this period... they were running out of time. But 56 BCE would have been a far easier to justify year for messianic activity. By the 30s CE they were reaching the point of god being "wrong, " which was breaking their brains, and they were more willing to listen to random crackpots claiming to be the one.

[markray]

Thanks Derick, love to hear a plain talk on the evidence of Daniel as a forgery - I think linguistic studies proves it was written very late 200BCE and not the 500-600 BCE as the book indicates. I also understand that some cannons of scripture have Daniel that has more characters. Go figure 😂

[Kimberly-lxqy]

Jeremiah prophesied of Judah’s coming destruction.
The future restoration (return to their land) and a new covenant. He did not fail.
Daniel 9 - it is almost at the end of the 70 years
Jesus fulfills the 70 weeks
Matthew 23:29, Hebrews 9:25-26, 2 Corinthians 5:19
Romans 3:21-26, Luke 21:22, acts 10:38 and Hebrews 9:11-12

Yes the math does work perfectly for the time of the messiah to be only Jesus

[thenowchurch]

Carrier and the other scholars on this topic have done a great job of revealing the pretension of the book of Daniel but he is wrong in supposing that Christianity rests on that book to any significant degree.

Remove Daniel and Christianity still gets established with the help of First Enoch and passages from the major and minor prophets, creatively interpreted.

The Dispensationalist Evangelicals will have to abandon their 70th week, 7 year Tribulation theory but that is about the extent of the damage.

[muskyoxes]

None of the date math comes even remotely close to adding up to Onias. If it's written post-facto, why wouldn't it add up easily and immaculately?

Chapter 8 contradicts chapter 7, and chapter 11 contradicts chapter 8. I think only chapters 10-12 was Maccabean fan fiction. The rest of it would have lined up much better if it was too

[CryoftheProphet]

Daniel 9 says nothing about Jeremiahs prophecy being wrong. Daniels 70 weeks of years is not the same prophecy as Jeremiahs 70 years in babylon, how does Richard call himself a phd and gets this completely wrong?

[carlcizek]

Derick. This PhD is incorrect. Daniel doesn’t predict the end of the world as if its somthing that failed. It describes it..huge difference.

[elkeism]

Daniel's in the Dead Sea scrolls: do they debunk it here?

[CryoftheProphet]

Daniel predicted that the Messiah would come 483 years after the decree to restore jerusalem (Artaxerxes decree was 457bc) which means that the only time in history when the Messiah could appear was 27ad, when Jesus Christ was revealed.

You cant make that up.

[AquarianAgeApostle]

When i saw the thumbnail of Carrier's face and 100% lies, I thought I'd be watching an exposé on mythicism's most notorious grifter.
😂

[eximusic]

Next you'll tell us that fairies can't fly.

[eganfuego]

10 seconds in and the guys with the Phd is already exposing his ignorance. Nothing to see here folks. Just another clueless humanist.