Solving Apparent Contradictions in the Doctrine of the Trinity | w/Dr. Chris Tweedt - ep. 171

"Trinititarians are charged with at least two contradictions. First, the Father is God and the Son is God, so it seems to follow that the Father is the Son. Trinitarians affirm the premises but deny the conclusion, which seems contradictory. Second, the Father is a God, the Son is a God, and the Holy Spirit is a God, but the Father is not the Son, the Father is not the Holy Spirit, and the Son is not the Holy Spirit. This argument seems to entail that there are three Gods. Again, Trinitarians affirm the premises but deny the conclusion." Dr. Chris Tweedt helps me think through these two problems for Trinitarians and provides a novel solution to them which is compatible with divine simplicity.

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0:00 - Chris's Backstory
5:58 - Two Proposed Contradictions for Trinitarians
26:33 - Aquinas on the Trinity
31:00 - Semantic and Metaphysical Strategies for Dispelling the Contradictions
40:53 - Opaque Contexts and the Trinity
50:22 - Simplicity vs. the Trinity?
57:30 - Is there something-it's-like-to-be God?
1:02:20 - Relations and the Trinity

[ParkersPensees]

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[christweedt]

I got tripped up at 1:12:30 because I referenced the first problematic argument; I should have referenced the solution to the second problematic argument. If you count starting with God, God is identical to each of the divine persons, but, because of the solution to the second problematic argument I proposed, the result is not that there are three or four things.

Also, here's Mike Rea's article in which he argues that pure relative identity commits you to denying that there are maximally general sortals:
Rea, Michael (2003). “Relative Identity and the Doctrine of the Trinity.” Philosophia Christi 5:2, 431-446.

[ExploringReality]

Haven’t gotten through all the way yet but great video guys!

[redbearwarrior]

I am not really a philosophy of language guy but I am not sure that we can appeal to opacity in order to avoid the conclusion of the first argument. Say that Susan knows that Mark Twain was a great writer. But Susan does not know that Mark Twain's real name was Samuel Clemens. Then qua opacity Susan does not know that Samuel Clemens was a great writer. But there remains some sense where Susan does know that Samuel Clemens was a great writer. This is because Mark Twain and Samuel Clemens co-refer. So it seems that even if qua opacity the Son is not the Father that there would remain some sense where the Son is the Father. I think that opaque contexts being external to the referent do not result in a real distinction in the referent. If there is a real difference between the Father and the Son then there is no real way that They can both be identical to God. I believe that both are identical to God that is why I am a One Self Trinitarian. I like Brian Leftow's life stream model. I think that we need to make room for the Son being the Father in some sense given Isaiah9:6.

[landon]

Why don’t you talk about Yandell’s view? It’s pretty satisfying.

[SamuelAdamsT]

If you ever want to discuss these issues from the non-trinitarian point of view you know where to find me.

[mitchellc]

Hello

Jesus is the Messiah
The Son of God
The Son of David
The Son of man
The man God has chosen to be his anointed king
The man God will judge the world through
The man God raised from the dead
Jesus will return and rule the nations with believers in the kingdom of God on the earth

Jesus has a God
There is no triune god in scripture


Jesus said the Father is the only true God!

John 17
3 And this is eternal life, that they know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom thou hast sent.

—

Acts 3
13 The God of Abraham, and of Isaac, and of Jacob, the God of our fathers, hath glorified his Servant Jesus; whom ye delivered up, and denied before the face of Pilate, when he had determined to release him.
14 But ye denied the Holy and Righteous One, and asked for a murderer to be granted unto you,
15 and killed the Prince of life; whom God raised from the dead; whereof we are witnesses.


Notice Jesus is NOT the God of Abraham

13 The God of Abraham, and of Isaac, and of Jacob, the God of our fathers, hath glorified his Servant Jesus; whom ye delivered up, and denied before the face of Pilate, when he had determined to release him.