561: How the Evangelical Movement Failed a Generation with Jon Ward

From the Jesus Movement in the 1970s, through the Religious Right in the 1980s, the rise of New Calvinism in the 1990s, and the MAGA movement today, as a Christian kid in the suburbs and then a political journalist in Washington, Jon Ward has had a front seat to the most significant characters and events in American evangelicalism. He talks with Skye about his new autobiography, “Testimony,” and why he is still committed to Christian faith despite the failure of the movement that raised him. Also this week, early data shows a reduction in the number of abortions since the Supreme Court overturned Roe, but it’s less than many predicted. The so-called “independent prophets'' are predicting God will kill Donald Trump’s opponents next month. Why are they still supporting him when there are alternatives? And a report finds advocates of Christian Nationalism are more rooted in cultural heritage than Christian theology. Is anyone surprised?

Patreon Bonus: Christian Asks - What is Hell?

Patreon Bonus: Jon Ward bonus interview


0:00 - Intro

3:26 - Theme Song

3:47 - Sponsor: Blueland

4:56 - Show continues

5:35 - MAGA prophet says anti-Trumpers will experience sudden deaths in May

13:48 - Abortion rates since Dobbs decision

29:52 - Why some Christians feel the need to pass God’s law as the nation’s law

43:22 - How Christian is Christian Nationalism

Sponsors
57:07 - Sponsor: Hiya Health

58:12 - Sponsor - Sundays

59:23 - Interview Intro

1:02:14 - Jon’s upbringing from the Jesus Movement to New Calvinism

1:07:22 - Gnosticism’s influence on Evangelicalism

1:18:54 - Journalism during the Trump era

1:30:46 - End Credits

Links mentioned in news segment:

MAGA prophet Lance Wallnau says that anti-Trumpers in both political parties will start dying “sudden deaths” next month

Legal Abortions in US Down 5,000 Per Month Since the End of Roe

How Christian Is Christian Nationalism?

Other resources:

Testimony: Inside the Evangelical Movement That Failed a Generation by Jon Ward

The Holy Post is supported by our listeners. We may earn affiliate commissions through links listed here. As an Amazon Associate, we earn from qualifying purchases.

[lauranjoroge]

"Do you know where this leaves us? Exactly where every other Christian in the world is! Living in a country that wasnt necessarily set up to cater to your comfort, and still following Jesus just fine." - Phil
That might be the best way to conclude all conversations about complex topics going forward. So good. And TRUE!

[T-]

The Jon Ward interview is excellent, from great questions to clear, thoughtful responses. Mr. Ward is a very impressive guy. Thanks for doing this.

[jonathanfriar]

Skye made some great points around the 20 minute mark. There’s more to pro life than being against abortion. There’s the holistic approach of head start, prenatal care, healthcare coverage, available hospitals, education, and so-on. The left has always pushed for a more holistic approach to promoting life. The problem is that the right has never truly been pro life. They’ve been anti abortion. The right has made little or no effort to address these issues. In fact, they’ve proven the opposite by voting against these things constantly during Obama’s tenure; and now-Biden. This is not a “both sides are equally” bad issue. This is one side (only) resisting social progress.

[benjaminthompson]

Full disrespect: “You get to make your own healthcare decisions with your doctor” is NOT an extreme position.

[JohnThomas-utgo]

They don't want to create heaven on earth. They want to force God's hand and make him start the end times.

[aggielonghorn]

I can't take it anymore. You all are too reasonable in this age that demands over-the-top zealotry (tongue in cheek). Thanks guys and gal for the well thought out and balanced discussion of this variety of topics. So rare these days and much appreciated.

[allisonfalin]

Good discussion as always. If women actually knew the full use of Mifepristone they would be more than upset about the current discussions. It is used for endometrial overgrowth in endometriosis and fibroid diseases. It is used in dangerous conditions like ectopic pregnancies. This will end up playing out in a similar manner as the shootings and gun debate in my home state of TN, where the Governor actually stood up and did something right….but not until his wife’s best friend was killed.

[macdri]

Hearing Skye talk about health care and family supports as well as manifest destiny, warms my Canadian heart.
Hearing him, like so many other Americans, just mention First Nations people as a footnote to the atrocities that happened to African Americans...less so. Tired of people talking like First Nations didn't suffer as much, or still do (look up 'No More Stolen Sisters'). It's not a competition, but saying it that way makes it seem like it is. Frequently, it is framed as "the worst thing to happen to Black people was Slavery and the worst thing to happen to Indigenous people was having their land taken away". Um, no. In addition to land issues there is all the things that also happened here in Canada: the terrible state of the reserves they were forced into, children being taken away from their parents into residential schools, the horrors and death tolls of most of those schools and the crisis of missing and murdered Indigenous women. In Canada, there is the additional shameful history of the "60s scoop".
But unlike in Canada, there is a reason that the majority of First Nations people have disappeared from the U.S. Starting with the Moravian massacre, the U.S. has a long history of attempts at genocide against First Nations people and most of the others were directed by the government. The "trails of tears": forced relocations that turned into death marches. Giving the blankets of small pox victims to people in the reserves so they would catch it and die. Paying former soldiers to kill as many as possible and paying by the scalp. Killing off herds of animals heading north so Sitting Bull's people, who had fled to British owned lands for safety (sad statement), would be forced by hunger to come hunting south of the border where they would be massacred. Even the disappearance of the bison was a failed attempt at starving or controlling First Nations people by killing off all of the largest animals that they used as a food source.
Sorry, but I get so tired of hearing people in the U.S., often even other people of color, talk like the worst thing that happened to the First Peoples of the U.S. was having their land taken away. That WAS bad...but the repeated attempts at genocide...that was WAY worse. That needs to be talked about more.

[veggiet]

I think a wholistic prolife abortion bill also needs to have an allowance in the case of the life of the unborn. We hear about the life of the mother, but I've heard of many cases where the doctor knew that the unborn was not viable and died moments after birth.

[nattylite]

I really don’t think the Democratic position on Abortion is particularly extreme. Most Americans were in favor of the status quo of Roe v Wade.

[leesat]

Great discussion! I think that balance is the key here instead of extremism. I love the part about a holistic approach to the life issue and acknowledging the pain of the past 400 years.

[helenr]

Before the Moral Majority, even conservative churches were not focused on abortion. It only became a single issue matter after it was made political.

As an non American I struggle to understand why those seeking the decline of abortions also fight against all the things that are shown to reduce them, and fight against social care that supports the poorest and most vulnerable, and leaves people in fear of medical debt such that they get more unwell putting off getting help. But those moral issues seem off the table.

[veggiet]

"what if our goal in politics wasn't to bludgeon?" - Phil Vischer 2023 😂

[edtsch]

LOL! "In my Father's Inbox are many emails."

[dianefischer]

Even if you are prolife, which I am, I can put together a whole bunch of examples where it’s not as simple as the anti-abortion folks make out to be. And when you take those decisions out of the hands of patients and their doctors, you only get tragic outcomes.

[hapennysparrow]

The wholeistic approach to the pro life argument makes complete sense, but when does anything proposed by the Religious Right make any sense? I personally believe that we don't need to make abortion illegal but unnecessary? There are certain situations in which abortion is medically necessary. Its not an easy issue. From what I have observed, abortion has been the bait on the hook to reel in votes, but totally neglected the social needs of support for families, especially for lower income households.Understand how difficult it is to raise a family as a single mom, struggling endlessly to make ends meet. I raised five children on my own with limited marketable job skills. It was rough. I am pro life, meaning caring for the welfare of the woman and the child both before and after the birth. I have known women for whom an abortion was the only solution, ectopic pregnancy, a malformed fetus with no hope of life outside of the womb, a child impregnated by incest, a woman whose health condition made a pregnancy impossible. It is not a black and white issue. To use it to capture votes is cynical and grotesque. The Religious Right have pulled this nation closer to a fascism mindset, which is beyond comprehension.

[melissafollis]

You're still talking about abortion from a far-right political perspective instead of a medical one. Please bring in an obstetrician to explain why the political perspective is incompatible with the medical realities.

For example, most disabilities aren't discovered until the 20 week scan. Banning abortion before then prevents people from making the best choice for their situation. Most abortions are done before 10 weeks anyway, assuming they have access to care. Limiting access means that abortions happen later in pregnancy.

Choosing to deliver a very sick baby early to reduce their suffering is considered an abortion. Choosing whether or not to continue carrying a suffering baby is a heartbreaking decision. No one else should have to right to make that decision for them.

I chose to birth my disabled daughter. She seemed to be thriving and was in no pain in utero. I lived in her hospital room for the 98 days she lived. I held her as she breathed her last. Those were my choices. And I recognize that I was fortunate to have the support to do so.

While I was in the NICU, I inadvertently overheard so many of the other cases. I heard babies who screamed almost nonstop. I learned of deformities I had never heard of. Have you witnessed what is done to a coding preemie? Sometimes trying to safe a life is to increase suffering. Banning all abortion will increase the number of suffering infants.

And I'm not saying we should never try to save sick babies or that disabled people are any less worthy of life than anyone else. I'm saying that reproduction is so complicated that it's no one else's decision other than to make sure that whatever choice is made is done with the least amount of suffering possible.

[MGM-ruoj]

Awesome discussion, keep up the good work Holy Post team.

[nealdavis]

Sheila Wray Gregoire of the Bare Marriage podcast gave a shoutout to Skye Jethani’s book. You guys should have she and her co-host daughter on your show sometime.

[complexmindsimpleman]

Skye made excellent points. You know you're on the wrong side of history when you seek to hide and revise history then seek to change the very rules you recently demanded everyone else obey the moment they are no longer clearly in your favor