Athlean-X & Mentzer are WRONG! Pull-Downs / Chin-Ups DON’T Work Biceps at Both Ends!! (THIS Does) 💪

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Key Timestamps:
0:00 Intro
0:35 Error #1 - Shoulder Flexion (Pull-Downs Don’t Work It!)
0:53 How to REALLY Work the Biceps at the Shoulder
1:33 Position vs Resistance Examples
3:15 What About the Eccentric Phase?
4:51 Why Should You Believe Me?
6:13 Error #2 - Active Insufficiency
6:53 Error #3 - Supination
8:42 Intro to Regional Hypertrophy
9:42 Biceps Regional Hypertrophy - Key #1 (Biarticular Effect)
10:31 Biceps Regional Hypertrophy - Key #2 (Supination)
11:31 Specialized Supplements You’re Not Taking
12:13 ProHealth Longevity & the Importance of Personalized Nutrition
13:58 Fitness-Tip Friday Newsletter

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Athlean-X recently quoted a bodybuilder named Mike Mentzer in saying that “the close-grip palms-up pull-down is the best BICEPS exercise in the world, better than any curl you can do.” He even called the chin-up, which is the same underhand pull movement, one of the only 2 bicep exercises you need. Because, according to him “It applies the stress to the biceps from both ends because we’re going into that flexed shoulder and bent elbow position.”

Error #1 - The pull-down and chin-up do NOT work the biceps at the shoulder! It’s physically impossible.

The biceps perform elbow flexion at the bottom, and shoulder flexion at the top, and it is essential to work them at both ends, because that has regional hypertrophy effects on the biceps. Working them at the elbow preferentially works the LOWER biceps, while working it at the shoulder work the UPPER biceps more.

But a pull-down or chin-up combines elbow flexion with shoulder EXTENSION!! The exact opposite of what the bicep does!

To work the biceps at the shoulder, you need resistance against shoulder flexion. Here that’s the dumbbell pushing down on the upper arm, forcing the shoulder flexors like the upper biceps and front deltoid to work against it.

During a pull-down the shoulder’s in a flexed position, which may trick you into thinking you’re working shoulder flexion, but there’s nothing pushing down on the arm! The resistance - which is what matters - is the cable pulling up on the arm, forcing the shoulder extensors, like the lats and long head of the triceps, to work against it.

This can be confusing, because the shoulder IS in a flexed position. But the position itself doesn’t tell you anything about what muscles are being worked in any exercise. It depends 100% on where the resistance is coming from!

What about the eccentric phase? The shoulder is being flexed then, right? Yes, but it’s passive shoulder flexion because there’s still no resistance against it. Think of it this way, does the eccentric phase of a push-up work your back because your arms are pulling being retracted? Nope. Still works the chest, just concentrically then eccentrically.

The fact is that if you’re doing a pull-down or chin-up, nothing you can do, whether its overloading eccentrics, adjusting the angle of your elbow, or how far back you lean… nothing, can change that fact that you’re working shoulder extension. Not flexion.

Error #2 - Having the shoulders flexed and elbows bent at the same time - like they are at the bottom of a pull-down or top of a chin-up - actually puts the biceps into active insufficiency. So at this point of the exercise, even the elbow flexion aspect works the brachialis far more than the over-shortened biceps.

Error #3 - Having the forearms in a supinated position and working supination itself are two completely different things!

In order to work the biceps more than the other elbow flexors during a curl, there has to be ROTATIONAL resistance against supination! That’s what it does that the other flexors don’t. A pull-down or chin-up doesn’t provide that.

[davidk]

They absolutely work the biceps. How do I know that? My biceps are sore and have a major pump after my chin-ups and pull-ups.

[theguy]

Interesting. I stopped weights and did only pullups for biceps for two months and my biceps got noticeably bigger.

[jamestan]

I've been doing undergrip pulldowns for about 6 weeks now and my bi's have grown more than they ever have outside of my first year of training. My wife actually commented last week and she rarely notices things like that. Maybe it's my body structure but these work really well for me.

[Littlebpaulmuller-Owner]

1. The exercise at 0:13 is not chinup, but a more difficult version, check it again.

2. That's not the reason at 0:18, that's actually an entire different video titled "STOP, You're Training Your Biceps Wrong!"

3. The problem with this video is thinking Jeff claimed Chinup or Pulldown trains the Elbow Flexion and Shoulder Flexion functions of the Biceps, when in fact Jeff was talking about training the Elbow Flexion function while having Biceps in the shortened position (Flexed Shoulder).

He literally explained in the video:
"Why? Because I could apply good tension in that shortened position, with the arms up elevated into shoulder flexion and having that flexed elbow"

4. At 9:45, it's actually triarticulate, crossing three joints not two: shoulder joint and two elbow joints

5. At 10:28 and 11:09, you don't have dynamic supination but you CAN have static supination (Overcoming Isometric) which can increase Biceps' activation easily.
That's why you complement DB Curls (dynamic) with Barbell Curls (static)

[j.langer]

You have two choices: trust some youtuber, or try and verify. I personally bulked up my biceps and got stronger with this exercise.

[revanmoto]

Gymnasts have testified to pull-ups being the reason why their biceps are so big when done correctly.

[AxeManGaming]

The close-grip palms-up pulldown does put pressure on both ends of the biceps at the deepest point of the motion. This is why Mike Mentzer emphasized static holds as such a crucial part of training. This, and the chin up, are the most effective ways to do this. Also your bicep curl with shoulder flexion that you demonstrated doesn't work the bicep from both ends, it works the biceps and the front delt. Mentzer's pulldown works the biceps, forearms, and almost the entire back.

I see what you are saying but man some of the best bicep pumps I’ve gotten are from doing chin ups

[brandonenigma]

A lot of people are making an easy mistake here. He’s not saying that a pulldown won’t increase bicep size. He just saying it’s not optimal. Then he’s giving suggestions to make the movements optimal.

[MrJreynolds]

At 7:35, you mentioned that "The brachialis is actually the strongest elbow flexor if the forearms stay fixed in a supinated position."

However, Murray et al. (1995) conducted a study titled “Variation of muscle moment arms with elbow and forearm position, ” which found that the biceps brachii exhibits a greater flexion moment arm across the entire flexion/extension range of motion, particularly when the forearm is supinated. This suggests that when the radioulnar joint is fully supinated, the biceps brachii is the strongest of the elbow.

At 7:44, you presented a pie chart illustrating the relative contributions to elbow flexion torque of the biceps, brachialis, and brachioradialis. The chart indicates the brachialis contributing 47% and the biceps contributing 34%. This information appears to be sourced from a paper by Kawakami et al. titled “Specific tension of elbow flexor and extensor muscles based on magnetic resonance imaging” (1994). The abstract of the paper states, "Within flexors, BRA [brachialis] had the greatest contribution to torque (47%), followed by BIC [biceps brachii] (34%) and BRD [brachioradialis] (19%)."

Upon thorough examination of the entire paper, a discrepancy arises between this statement and the data presented in Table 1. Contrary to the abstract, Table 1 indicates that the biceps brachii (BIC) contributes 47% to elbow flexion torque, while the brachialis (BRA) contributes 34%.

In an attempt to reconcile this inconsistency, I contacted the lead author, Yasuo Kawakami, who acknowledged the error and provided clarification: "Yes, you are right, and I was wrong. I made a mistake in the abstract with BIC and BRA as you indicated. Correctly, BIC (47%) > BRA (34%) > BRD (19%). My apology for the easy mistake which had gone through all the processes, including reviewing. Once again, thank you for your interest in one of my rather old articles."

If necessary, I can provide the email exchange for confirmation.

I previously addressed these discrepancies in the comments of your Mar 18, 2023 "Biceps Curls" video, yet received no response. I urge you to correct these inaccuracies in this video, your previous one, and any future content on the topic.

[BillyJ]

Doc, the results I've gotten from your single arm twisting cable curls, forearm, & brachioradialis have been excellent. Thanks again

[Enthalpy]

Reverse pulldown has been a top two mass builder for my defined 16.25" arms. I will still use it but now know it does not work full range of both heads as I believed. Thanks - I know to modify my workout now and maybe that will get me past the plateau I've been stuck at for 6 weeks. I will try the bicep move you developed.

[orexgabriel]

This makes sense. Recently I was super-setting dumbbell shoulder press with arm blaster curls and felt strong bicep activation during the shoulder press. I was wandering why.

For your future videos, could you do some on super-setting - it seems my selection of supersetting opposing muscle groups was not quite right. Also, please provide options for minimalist equipment - personally I train at home with dumbbell, barbell, bench and half-rack but do not have access to cables.

[fazole]

I kind of discovered this too. Regular pull ups and chin ups hurt my shoulder, but by using twisting grips attached to the bar, it hurts less And allows supination. I also do bicep pull downs now using 2 cables with a grip on each end so I can pull and supinate. This along with preacher curls seems to get my biceps more universally sore, rather than just sore at the insertion point above the elbow.

[jimwest]

The only person ever to get a perfect, 300 score and Mr. Olympia not once but twice the legend I’m going to listen to that guy !!! I stop listening to doctors after safe and effective yeah, right

[toasterpastries]

*This is simply not true. The human body is designed to perform compound exercises first and foremost. The bicep is more than just in the upper arms. It connects to the back and forearm. Look at the biceps of athletes and prison inmates who do tons of chinups. They're fricken huge while natty*

[asprinklingofclouds]

The problem here is that you are drawing conclusions from the biomechanics of the movement, and ignoring the fact that it is far easier to overload the biceps with the pulldown (or chin up) than with the bicep curl, which results in greater hypertrophy of the biceps from the compound lift. Not only is this from experience, but also backed by science: Gentil P, Soares S, Bottaro M. Single vs. Multi-Joint Resistance Exercises: Effects on Muscle Strength and Hypertrophy.

[Blazemon]

Wow thanks doc. I actually implemented that AthleanX video into my training and was wondering why it didn't feel like it was hitting my biceps all that much. Thought I was doing something wrong and ended up dropping the underhanded pulldown from my program. Glad to know it wasn't my fault. Waiting on some ironmaster dumbbells so I can start doing your training with the offset weights

[_rich]

It is always good to have a sanity check on what others say. I like the detailed discussion of the mechanics. Athleen X does a good job with his stuff, but your illustrations help immensely when understand what is being worked.

[fenrirgg]

How do gymnasts get big biceps with just pull ups?