Leopard 2 tanks for Ukraine

Spain has recently announced a delivery of Leopard 2A4 tanks to Ukraine. Would they actually perform well against the Russians and are they actually a good tank for Ukraine?

Sources:

[topkek]

The tanker is right with his concerns. But I think if you have eyperience driving a T-64 through terrain and know how to spot obstacles that will make you lose your track you will also be able to do so inside of the Leopard 2. On the other hand the West has to make them get used to western equipment because the stockpile of Soviet-Era equipment in western countries is rather limited. Leopard 2 would be a good start especially when other countries send the PzH 2000 wich shares many automotive components of Leopard 2.

[yuhsienhsu]

I don't think giving the issue is they should give Ukrainian more T-series tanks but rather the Western countries are running out of Soviet-era equipment to Ukrainian since only former Warsaw Pact countries have those and they have been giving those to Ukraine therefore it's going to a point that the Ukrainian have to start using Western equipment like these Leopard tanks, M119, and artillery etc.

[megatondiplomat]

I think the issue is that many people are going to already be experienced tankers and some of that, at least, will translate well to another completely different type of tank. But war is war and people have had to adapt quickly to tank driving before with no previous experience.

[enduser]

Having talked to a friend of mine who was an Abrams tanker, he says learning to drive one is stupid easy, and that most systems on them are designed as "keep it simple stupid". From what he's told me it's as if crew cohesiveness/communication and overall communication with the rest of the tank unit and higher ups are more important.

Of course training with different ammo properties and repair-work will take some time but I doubt it would be years, especially with experienced enough Ukrainian crews. It's not like modern tanks are so different that no knowledge carries over.

[ArchOfficial]

Here in Finland we use Leo2A4 and 2A6 with conscripts. Maintainers are conscripts too. Of course there are professional officers. But the point is that they don't get years of training, it's 6 months for "other tasks" and 9 months for "special tasks" which I assume means actually crewing tanks. That is total soldier training period, including all of the infantry stuff, physical training etc.

If 6-9 months trained 18-19 year old kids can maintain and crew Leopard 2 to a highly professional level on par with NATO and do extremely well in exercises with NATO, then I'm sure that experienced Ukrainian tank crews who have many hours operating T-tanks (Some of them in combat...) will be able to learn them very quickly, in a matter of weeks to acceptable operational capability I bet, maybe a month. Not perfect but it will be 85% there.

We should have started training them on Leopard 2 half a decade ago, not now, it's not too late but they should be training them yesterday.

[karhu]

Kind of disagree with the idea that tankers who have trained to work with Soviet tanks could not be retrained fairly quickly to work with NATO ones. Finland did something similar a few decades ago and the people who described that process say that it was really not that difficult to adapt to the new equipment on the tankers side. One tanker who went through this process, Finnish retired tank general and ex head of the School of Armored Warfare (Panssarikoulu) Pekka Toveri, has been a staunch advocate of supplying NATO tanks to Ukraine. As most of the training that one does with tanks is based on tactics, the main principles of armored warfare that apply for the T-64 also apply to Leopard 2. Getting used to handling the new equipment will not take that much time in comparison.

What is true is that the logistics guys need to be well trained and have a deep understanding of the tank in order to be able to quickly and efficiently repair any breakdowns. Also, these tanks need to have their own specialized logistics companies to support them. Creating the logistics network to support these tanks with non-standard parts and ammunition will be much more difficult and time consuming than training the tankers.

In any case, Ukraine does not have the luxury of having spare tank crews that have trained for 3+ years with pretty much any equipment. Those guys have been fighting full time for months now and there will be plenty of ex-Soviet tanks to replace the existing ones. No matter the equipment, they will have to send guys who have, at most, a few months of experience handling it to combat. A lot of these kind of issues will have to be figured out on the fly no matter what.

[Kelkschiz]

I've been quite concerned about all the different weapon systems being sent to Ukraine. Diversity is a logistical and training nightmare. An army only works well when all the parts are in the right place. For that reason, most modern armies rely on only a few different systems and build up the support to keep these systems functioning in the field. I fear this problem will cost lives. On the other hand, I suppose it is better to have a weapon system with problems than no weapon system at all.

[kamilszadkowski]

12:40 A few years ago when Poland was interested in expanding its Leopard fleet a Polish commission inspected the Spanish Leopards 2A4 and deemed them unsuitable for purchase due to their horrible technical condition.
So no, Poland will not send PT-91s in exchange for the Spanish scrap metal pretending to be a tank. Also, Poland plans to withdraw Leopards from active service in the near future in favor of K2 tanks. So there is no reason to get more of them.

[TVideoCZ]

Czech Republic will get 15 Leopard 2 A4 tanks from Germany for free as a replacement for the T-72s sent to Ukraine. Of course as generous as it is this is also a business move to ensure that Czech Army will order 50 new Leopard 2 A7+ tanks. (one article claims that those 15 donated Leopard 2s are actually Swiss Panzer 87s sold to Rheinmetall)

[Dryadlis]

One small things, from the last news Spain will send 14 tanks.

Second, the reverse speed of the Leopard2 is the same as the forward. It s just slower at reverse speed because engeniers found that is more sure for the crew so they a add a blocker.

Third, Poland and Czech Republic wanted to buy some Spanish leopard2 A4 but they saw that they re in very bad condition. So they didn't buy them

And I really liked the video.

[lilstarship]

Leopard 2a4’s vs storage t-55’s and 64’s would be interesting.

[monopalle]

I was a gunner on the leopard 1.... In about 6 to 8 months, I was BORED because I had learned everything and it was rutine... We had NO breakdowns or malfunctions... After the FIRST monthly maintenance routine, I knew all the components, and how to take them out, clean them, and put them back in.... Considering we spent time also learning first aid, pistol shooting, water combat, etc, I would say a crash course of mere WEEKS could make a crew LETHAL.... In a few months, it becomes SECOND NATURE.... It's NOT THAT HARD.... Literally like a video game.

[rolf]

Do a video on rheinmetall’s new kf51 panther tank

[ReaperCH]

If you take an existing t-xx team and put them into a leppard II I'd say in 1-2 months time they will be ready to use it good enough.

[cherrypoptart]

Russian tankers : Finally we'll have to stop worrying if the enemy tanks are friendly tanks

[ThePereubu]

If they can be used as 2nd-line defence weapons and releases T-72s, T-80s for intense combat, even that would be a benefit.

[MUSIC]

We saw how quickly T72s from Poland were equipped with ERA. why shouldn't she do the same with a leopard? I think Russian ERA also protects German tanks. And I think the Ukrainians wouldn't be afraid to be creative either and would just weld holders to the side. it is also not the case that Leo2A4 has no power reserves. 5 tons can still run before it affects mobility

[MrNicoJac]

I think the "years" of training **only** applies to a peacetime nation, where it's too expensive to drive your tanks around for more than one hour a day (if not less).

That's _far_ different when you're at war, and people are driving around these tanks for 12 hours a day...

[bleakfeather]

Tanker here. I might sound like a YouTube comment but hear me out. I've been trained on West and Soviet tanks, and it's not difficult. If you can operate one, you can operate the other. Why?

It's like an Xbox playing a PS5. Or a PC gamer getting on console. The principal is the same, all you're doing is learning new controls, new limitations, and new capabilities. And let me tell you from my experience- the hardest part to relearn is the capability and limitation. Because you're so used to the one tank, if you're not used to serving across many different armored vehicles, it's easy for muscle memory or impulse reflexes to screw crews up here. It got me at first too.

I do think the Leopard is good for Ukraine too. Since they can't and very likely will not be getting the Abrams- unless Poland gets involved- so the Leopard is third best. Third place behind the Chally, which might be a better tank the Abrams. But the Leopard is still the perfect tank for the job, because it's a tank gun. And it's a very mobile, very accurate, very lethal gun too.

[Beneficiis]

Poland didn't send all T-72's to Ukraine - what was sent was 200-250 tanks. There's around 150-200 remaining, although condition of these vechicles could be questionable. for PT 91 there's like 230 of various versions, with ERA (slightly superior to kontakt-1, and with very good coverage, since individual tiles are small) and relatively modern fire control system.
So technically in Polish armed forces there's still around 400 tanks "on way out", but there is no way to replace them quickly, so they were not sent. M1A2 sep v3 will only come in batches and slowly replace tanks that were already handed over.
This creates crippling armor shortage for Polish army since they want to create new "heavy" division going forward. So it needs more tanks that what it had before donation to Ukraine. If we were to get rid of all T-72 based vechicles then army of 150k would be left with 250 tanks and flat ground perfect for armored warfare...