Reality and the Concepts of Nothing with Dr. Robert Lawrence Kuhn

In this episode, Dr. Nader sits down with Dr. Robert Lawrence Kuhn, creator, writer, host and executive producer of the long-running public television series on PBS stations, Closer to Truth, to discuss: Why is there something rather than nothing? The topic of nothing is something that people have thought about since time immemorial. Dr. Kuhn describes an experience he had as a boy, which influenced his desire to explore what he calls the Nine Levels of Nothing. The frightening thought, Dr. Kuhn says, is that there could have been "nothing", a controversial thought, but one that Dr. Kuhn explores from an analytic perspective.

Dr. Kuhn has published over 30 books, including "The Mystery of Existence: Why Is There Anything At All?" (with the philosopher John Leslie) and “Closer to Truth: Challenging Current Belief”. He is also the author of the best-selling book "The Man Who Changed China: The Life and Legacy of Jiang Zemin". His articles include "Why This Universe?" and "Levels of Nothing". Dr. Kuhn is an international corporate strategist, investment banker, public intellectual, and long-time adviser to China's leaders. He has a B.A. in Human Biology from Johns Hopkins University, a Master of Science from the MIT Sloan School of Management, and a Ph.D. in anatomy and brain research from UCLA. Closer To Truth, on science and philosophy - Cosmos, Consciousness, Meaning - is now in its 22nd year on PBS stations nationwide and the Closer To Truth YouTube channel has 450,000 subscribers. Closer To Truth is co-created, produced and directed by Peter Getzels.

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SoundCloud:

0:00 Introduction
0:48 What is Nothingness? Dr. Kuhn’s Perspective on Nothingness
3:04 Different Kinds of “Nothing”
5:07 Dr. Kuhn’s Nine Levels of Nothing
5:48 First Level of Nothing: The Ultra Naive POV
6:02 Second Level of Nothing: Without Matter
6:21 Third Level of Nothing: Without Matter & Energy
6:28 Fourth Level of Nothing: Fundamental Emptiness
6:52 Fifth Level of Nothing: Where Physicists Start
8:59 Sixth Level of Nothing: No Pre-Existing Laws of Physics
9:34 Seventh Level of Nothing: Eliminating Non-Physical Concrete Objects
12:04 Eighth Level of Nothing: Eliminating Non-Physical Abstract Objects
13:35 Ninth Level of Nothing: Eliminating Possibilities
14:21 The Foundation for Understanding Reality/Why is there “Nothing?”
16:02 The Awareness of Nothing
19:17 Scientific Analysis without Prejudice
19:45 Description of Nothing in the Rk Veda
21:04 Analyzing the Ninth Level of Nothing
23:32 Experiences of Nothingness in Transcendental Meditation
24:38 The Nature of Reality in Relation to the Levels of Nothing
26:40 Analyzing Physicalist, Materialist, Deity, Perspectives
29:47 Defining an Ethical Basis to Reality: Axiology
31:49 Explanatory Power Being Key to the Ultimate Solution of Reality
34:17 A Solution to Addressing the Nature of Reality: Consciousness
37:12 Dr. Kuhn’s Analysis on the Different Philosophies of Reality
41:59 Each World Viewpoint Has Its Own Internal Coherence
42:40 The Power of Direct Experience
45:06 The Problem of Beginnings and Ends
47:20 Nothing as the Default Condition
51:11 God as a Necessity vs Reality
52:12 Dr. Kuhn’s Nine Different Ways of Explaining Consciousness
53:35 Materialism/Physicalism As a Way of Explaining Consciousness
54:04 Consciousness As the Ultimate Reality
55:27 Panpsychism
55:45 Dualism
56:08 Non-Reductive Physicalism
56:32 A Spectrum of Explanatory Approaches to Consciousness
57:26 Each Perspective of Reality Doesn’t Have to Contradict Each Other
1:02:14 Key Points in Analyzing Universal Consciousness Paradigm
1:06:51 Evaluating Different Perspectives on the Nature of Consciousness
1:10:43 Which Perspective on Reality Does Dr. Kuhn Gravitate Towards?
1:13:56 Final Remarks

[sharathsunder]

Pure Gold! The ultimate conversation. I wish people disagree with each other like this.

[Meditation]

Omg Mr. KUHN!!! I already know this is going to be a great discussion 😃😃❤❤

[nietztsuki]

Robert's "Closer to Truth" episodes are a true treasure-trove of information and interesting perspectives. I have watched virtually all of this programs, and benefitted from them greatly. However, his methodology, i.e. trying to ascertain "Truth" by rational cogitation alone, is like a dog chasing its tail. As Joseph Campbell once said, we can never reduce ultimate reality to any system of thought, since the ground of being transcends all thoughts and forms. The only way to move beyond thoughts and forms is to have the first person experience of Transcendence.

[s.p.]

Charmed by the interactions and deeply interested in the fascinating topic

[dorisschmid]

„We are all on the same journey, we are all in the same team“… because we are All consciousness.

[muneshchauhan]

I would suggest that the arguments raised in the discussion between Robert and Tony can be a bit scratched/ quelled if one goes through the book "I Am That" by Swami Nisargadatta. I understand it has a Vedantic non-duality connotation and many from other faiths may detest it which is very normal, but this book has lots of logical discussions.

[ljohnson]

This is a great conversation about the many levels of nothing love your channel!

[itsme-lebg]

This was a very interesting conversation. I think was 2 points of view, intellect is all there is or consciousness is all there is. It's understandable that after 20 years Dr Kuhn only feels he understands the question better and isn't much closer to the answer. His point of view assumes intellect is all there is and stands apart in analyzing reality. If he could take another side of the argument and understand intellect to be something created by consciousness, he might getting closer to truth, that consciousness is all there is. All other theories just fall short.

[jessmatsch]

This is awesome! So excited to experience this talk! 🙌🏼

[towardstruth]

Awesome Robert Lawrence Kuhn PHD! You clarified it so meticulously!

[selliahlawrencebanchanatha]

dear all your blessings we live you blessings

[SimplifiedTruth]

He nailed him.... "your consciousness is telling you that hunch" he was at a loss for words

[OfficialGOD]

Nothingness without possibilities is non-existence

[leilagargouri]

I love Consciousness, Nothingness intrigues me
Is there Nothing and nothing ?
Does each of us have his secret nothingness ?
What a rich and profound knowledge
DrNader never ceases to amaze us with the choice of his topics and his class guests
Amazing Sir thank you for your source of knowledge

[jeremiahmilazzo]

I hope Robert Kuhn will hear this question, beyond nothing would be timelessness also right, no time complete nothing, but it was through that timelessness here we are experiencing it, infinity if you will, I'm no mathematician but how do you erase infinity

[barryspivack]

I was waiting to hear that knowledge is different in different states of consciousness. Plus the hypothesis of consciousness is all there is comes with certain predictions such as the Maharishi Effect which provide evidence for that perspective.

[judyraymond]

To be completely objective Dr Kuhn would do well to experience the subjective field of himself and integrate experience that significant experience into his comprehensive thinking. I hope he learns TM for his sake. He deserves it!

[issamelias]

Nothing comes out of nothing, but there IS something - that is the question -

[giovannisantostasi]

Dr. Kuhn puts it upside down. It is not that there is something because something was necessary but on the contrary, it is because nothing cannot exists at least it cannot exists long enough because it is highly unstable. Nothing requires perfect uniformity, perfect symmetry and so any perturbation of that nothing makes it something. Perturbations in nothing are also unavoidable given any form of nothing that is strictly passive and non dynamic makes that nothing sterile in a sense. You can imagine such a nothing but it leads to nothing so it cannot be cognized, it cannot produce anything, and it doesn't exist. We can use a form of anthropic principle and say, the only nothing that can exists and be known is a nothing that leads to existence. So the only form of nothing is exactly what physics describes: a bubbling field of opposites that cancel each other. In this bubbling sea of total nothingness (because the sum is a zero) then slight, local perturbations from a perfect symmetry are actually unavoidable and this leads nothing becoming something. But also notice this something needs to be pretty simple and basically a seed, it cannot be god or some other complex entity. Complexity emerges from this simplicity as more and more parts integrate and interact. It is a bottom up process.

It is a beautiful, profound idea that basically solves all the fundamental problems of ontology and we have a lot of empirical evidence that is exactly what happened, at least in our universe.

[yifuxero]

I side with Nader (result of practicing TM for over 50 yrs). Robert has a good logical objection as a crux of the matter. He states that Consciousness is already in the premise and is not a cogent explanation for dualistic reality. Kuhn is trying to get the answer through logic. it's takes transcending the realm of the mind and tapping to Pure Consciousness directly. Logic alone won't get you there, except in rare cases of "Via Negativa" (crossing off one category then another or "Neti Neti". That's the Self-Enquiry approach of Ramana Maharshi. Robert needs to meditate more.