The Problem with Beethoven's 5th Symphony...

Did you know that Beethoven's 5th symphony is played often in exactly the same tempo? A handful go faster, a handful go slower. But imagine you would time travel to Vienna 1808, listening to the premiere of the C minor symphony with Beethoven as a conductor. What story would you bring back?
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[pepe_xara]

This just makes sense. I think people also lived slower. Modern day society would be so shocked. No bus no train no car... Orchestras were not as prepared as today by the way.
I know it's shocking for some people but just keep it up Wim, someday you'll get proper recognition as you deserve.

[MK-quql]

Note: I recognize that this is not supposed to be a discussion video so my aim is not to upset anyone and start a discussion. I would just like to provide some material for thought. :)

I don't hear note values. I listen to Gardiner or Zander and I hear "Allegro con brio" ("fast with vigor"). Then I look at the score, I see 8th notes, I see the metronome mark, and continue listening without any problem.

If which note value we feel is so intrinsic to the tempo, then why not the italian marking we feel?

If we think of the last movement of the same symphony we can even hear the first movement in quarter notes.
But we could also imagine 16th notes.
There is no rule for which speed the composer feels must correlate with which note value. There are rules on which note values are appropriate (more on that below).
There is a song by Beethoven for which in a letter he expressed the thought of doubling the note values in order to give the right character. So he himself explains that choosing a note value does not mean choosing a tempo. Doubling the note values does not mean half the tempo nor does halving the note values mean twice the tempo.
There was a similar point in a video on the Waldstein-Sonata years ago, stating that the fast 8th notes we hear at the beginning are (quote) "really 16th notes".
I ask: Who says that?
The 8th notes are only the second fastest values in the first movement so in order to avoid using constant 32nd runs in a fast Allegro, which (reference to above) is the kind of rule that does exist, Beethoven naturally chooses 8th notes for the beginning.

Anyone who looks at the entire work of Beethoven will see that his use of tempo and notation was very consistent and calculated.
But it was not choosing the one right note value because for every piece there are many options. Going back to the 5th symphony, as stated at the beginning, 16th, 8th and quarter notes would all follow the general rules of which note values are commonly used for that certain speed, since we find other compositions (like the last movement) which do use those values. He simply selected the one which in his mind would convey the right character. From the last movement (and other works) we see that he reserved the quarter note notation for Prestos and 16th notes might not have implied in the same accentuation so 8th notes is what we got.

If the tempo was already relatively clear only be the feeling we get from listening then why did Beethoven (and others) care so much about giving precise italian markings?

Think about it.

The whole struggle of notation, value, tempo was in the end always the effort to convey the right music. There was no one way otherwise composers would not have had this struggle.

This issue is exactly what the metronome marks were for, as we all know. Had it existed from the beginning, note values would be irrelevant.
Pieces with only metronome marks could be anything if one just looked at the score. Adagio, Moderato, Prestissimo...

Again, as with most other, regular pieces, notation, note values, italian tempo and metronome mark perfectly fit together like a puzzle without missing pieces.

Thanks for reading :)

PS: Again, I don't intend to start a raging debate (although of course I appreciate replys), the reason my comments turn out so long is because it is difficult to comment on a specific point since everything is closely interwoven. Nonetheless I try to stay as close to the point as possible without leaving out important aspects.

[danielshapiro]

Regarding why Beethoven didn't write 16th-notes if he heard them in the fast tempo (given by Gardiner et al): If he did so he would have had to write either 1/4 time, which is impossible, or at least 2/4 time. But the problem is that there are some places in the movement where there are three-bar periods (as the bars as currently printed are). In these places, Beethoven would either get what would be his whole metric sense messed up in every ensuing bar of the piece (having emphases on the wrong part of the bar etc) or else have to change meter a few times in the movement, which really wasn't done at that time. So in short Beethoven (perhaps reluctantly) had to write a barline for every 4 notes, and therefore had to write eighth-notes.

[troll]

If you look at most music from the classical era, allegros are often notated on eighth notes, while adagios are often noted with sixteenths. Following your logic, should we play adagios faster then allegros? Ore could it be that notation etiquettes change over time?

[islaadele]

Surely there must be historical reports, letters, documents from the period indicating perhaps how long a performance lasted? Surely that would solve the argument?

[curiousassortment]

Hello, I am a composer/pianist. Regarding the version heard at 4:15 (the "standard" version): If I had composed this, I would put a metronome mark that corresponds to the downward beat of my hand, once per measure. In this case: half note = approx. 118. As to the question of why Beethoven used 8th notes rather than 16th, I don't know. But If he had used 16ths, eight per measure, I would mark it quarter note = approx. 118. So there!

[accordiontv]

It’s not a question of whether you think of eight notes or sixteenths, it’s to do with the emphasis of the first beat of the bar which is strongest, hence the way big Beethoven chose to write it like this

[berkefeil]

What’s wrong with the half note = 108? If you count four 8th notes per metronome beat in this tempo you get a slightly faster version that usual but a very vigorous one. This definitely feels right in my experience

[artemasgray]

Answering the question: yes, I definitely hear sixteenths

[danielhuertasferrer]

I think using 2/4 for a fast tempo "in one" is possible and it shows in many Haydn and Mozart pieces. Also, you can find the example of Schumann 4th symphony; the allegro of the first movement was written in 2/4 in the same intention, more or less, as Beethoven 5, and when he revised it in 1854 he changed this movement to a 2/4 written in 16th notes, basically changing the main rythmic value from half notes to quarter notes. Showing, then, that his idea was the same with both notations and it was indeed common to conceive a fast movement like that in 2/4 with 8th notes.

[chegadesalzburg]

Two journeys or just one journey? Nice touch on this rethorical question.

[davidmdyer]

Then why does the metronome click in both directions? Did people really have to listen to two clicks and ignore one of them? It would have been possible to make a metronome that clicked in only one direction but I don't know of anyone who did. This is nonsense.

[tj-cogo]

As a classically trained musician, this video is just utter and complete rubbish. 8th or 16th notes don't indicate whether notes are slow or fast, their length differs based on tempo, and their emphasis on meter.

Besides, I am fairly certain that the tempo marking b = 108 in combination with Allegro con brio means a brisk tempo

Beethovenin often complained that interpreted played his music too slowly and in a sloppy manner - this indicates he wanted a fast tempo.

The whole "spirit" of the movement works better in fast rhythm. It sounds daring, revolutionary, fresh - stretching the instrument to the limits of its capabilities. Dark, powerful.

[aarondyer.pianist]

Your question is what would I use without any metronome marking to determine tempo. The answer, or part of it, is in how to hear rhythm, not tempo. The four-hand version is obviously a decision based on metronome marking so o can rule it out. So let me ask you this: If you knew nothing about this whole beat theory, what would make you consider this tempo?

[davidloveday]

The speed you suggest just isn't consistent with the "allegro con brio" marking, all the force and energy disappears from the piece, becoming soporific.

[Kmg_]

The brilliance of Beethoven and most of his contemporaries is truly remarkable. We have instantaneous digital access to a vast number of scores and letters, which have been read and discussed on this channel, and many LP/CD recordings at various tempi to consider.

The great composers of history however would have to search for physical copies of scores, which I assume was an arduous task in the 18th and 19th centuries; particularly for lesser known works. And even if, for example, Beethoven DID meet Mozart, imagine how sharp the mind would have to be to appreciate and remember the nuances of another composer in that one moment of time, which could likely not be replaced in the way we can watch a video or listen to an LP over and over again. They deserve great respect for that alone, I say.

[herrdoktorjohan]

At the fast performance speeds I hear it as DUH-duh-duh so triplet 16th notes followed by a half note (or what have you) whereas in the slowest performance you can discern that the accent is on the second note, duh-DUH-duh DUNNNN, where it should be according to the score and the gravitas imposed by each of the "Knocks of Fate" implies 8th notes followed by a half note (or what have you).

To answer the original question: I wouldn't want to step into that time machine. I like my comforts, and sitting in a near freezing concert hall for a few hours is not my idea of fun, even if the music is sublime.

[matttondr]

For anyone questioning this, read the description of a pendulum on wikipedia. ;)

“…..When released, the restoring force acting on the pendulum's mass causes it to oscillate about the equilibrium position, swinging back and forth. The time for one complete cycle, a left swing and a right swing, is called the period.”

Is it really far fetched to think that metronome marks used to represent oscillations of a pendulum (which a metronome is a mechanical version of) ie the full motion and not only halves of it? Especially knowing that musicians used to use apples on a string to keep time?

About the exercise, I would write Gardiner's performance with 16th notes, and your and Alberto's performance with 8th notes. Of course I would.

[NN-rnoz]

I just came back from the trip to 1808 in Vienna, and what I saw shocked me to the core. There was no orchestra, no audience. It was just Beethoven, in a small dark room, sitting side by side at the piano with an unidentified adolescent male, playing his symphony on the piano at the slowest pace imaginable. I immediately turned away from the ghastly sight, but alas, the slow pounding sounds they made will haunt my nighmares forever.