Romans 8: Does this Support Innate Moral Inability in response to the Gospel Appeal?

Roman 8:1-14: Does Paul teach the Calvinistic concept of mankind's moral inability from birth due to the fall of Adam in this (or any other) scripture? Let's explore...

[mrhartley]

This was excellent! These are getting better and better. I always appreciated the graciousness of Josh and his willingness to honestly understand the Traditionalist position.
I feel like he was thoroughly refuted and I hope this will be used to cause him to re-examine his presuppositions like I also did this year.

[lcn]

Dr. Flowers was absolutely clear, concise and correct in his explanations. I admire his patience as Josh constantly stumbled around with his words, ultimately proving that his own theology has him confused. The doctrine of calvinism has taken the Gospel and twisted it into a mess of tangled ideas that vary endlessly in each adherent's mind. This is very sad indeed, because the Gospel is simple enough for a child to understand...and God is not the author of confusion. It's frustrating beyond imagination to see so many people deceived and so many churches split over this false doctrine.

[photehepson]

love the charitable and thoughtful discussion here. josh’s appeal to the trinity as another doctrine that can’t be fully established in any single passage was astute and helpful for me. it seems like in this discussion, it wasn’t clearly established whether josh was comparing total inability to the trinity or tulip as a whole to the trinity.

seems like the analogy would be that total inability is a falsifiable sub-doctrine of calvinism like the deity of christ is a falsifiable sub-doctrine of the trinity. we have multiple examples where it seems clear that the author’s specific intent is to portray jesus as deity. if total inability is true, it would be surprising to find fewer passages establishing it than passages establishing the deity of christ, since the mystery of christ was intentionally veiled until after the resurrection, but the fact of inability is supposedly clearly known from the fall.

[marydetray]

I feel like the bible directly confirms that salvation can be lost which completely destroys calvanism, am I wrong?

[mrhartley]

When are you going to write a systematic theology from our perspective that complete with Grudem and Frame etc?

[marydetray]

Romans 7:21-25 describes how we come to realize we are dead, through the hearing of the commandments and cry out for a savior. Not because the spirit already regenerated us but because through the hearing of the law we come to realize Just how wicked we are even if we don't want to be and then, "thanks be to GOD" through the hearing of the gospel we come to see he has afforded us a savior! And THAT is how we come to the knowledge of the gospel, otherwise HOW was the law a Tudor? Just saying

[biblicalquestionsansweredw]

You are arguing hypercalvinism not Calvinism. Double predestination is not what they believe(so they say). And the bible says we as unregenerated are enemies with God Romans 5 : 10

[netballa]

All believers whether OT or NT are regenerate. You misunderstand regeneration as one who has been endwelled by the Spirit, this is not the case. Regeneration is the changing of a heart of stone to a heart of flesh. It is the True circumcision that the fleshly circumcision was a shadow of.

[Soonerguy]

Matthew 16:23 Jesus told a regenerate Peter that he was setting his mind on the things of man and not God. VERY similar language to Romans 8….

[biblicalquestionsansweredw]

I believe that the gospel appeals to the sin nature by presenting Christ as rescue from an adverse situation.

[contemplate-Matt.G]

Dr. Flowers, the translation you are using is no help to the matter. There is no "governed by the flesh" in the Greek of vs 6. Further, "kata sarx" or "according to flesh" is not to be misinterpreted as meaning "according to the sinful nature". Paul here is continuing his contrast from Rom 7 which is largely misinterpreted as a dichotomy between a carnal and a spiritual Christian. This is false. Paul in rom 7, is explaining the plight of a pharisee under the law, living according to the law; loving the law; desiring to follow the law; but knowing now that that was actually the cause of his death since he failed at every turn.

Knowing this, "kata sarx" in chapter 8 is a direct reference to those who are living under and relying LAW. Vs 1 defines Paul's usage of "sarx" in light of chapter 7, as after the law". If you replace "sarx" or "flesh" with "the law" you get what Paul's aim is.

Vs 1 no condemnation to those who "died to the law" and live by the spirit
Vs 4 righteousness is fulfilled in us who are not under the law but by the spirit
Vs 5 those under the law mind the things of the law
Vs 8 those under law cannot please God
vs 9 If the Spirit dwells in you, you are not under the law
Vs 12 we are not debtors to the law
Vs 13 if you live under the law, you'll die but if you allow the Spirit to kill the deeds of the body, you will live
Vs 15 those who are released from the "bondage" of the law are adopted sons of Abba

The point calvinists see "flesh" there as "sin" and think the reprobate are "governed" by it while Paul is really trying to say that if you simply believe by faith and not law, you are saved.
Please realize that this is Paul's 11 chapter long treatise on why being a Jew in the flesh is death but being a "Jew" who's circumcised of the heart is what matters.
Paul also uses "sarx" or "flesh" to denote "law" in galatians when he asks them why they started out in the spirit and we're trying to be completed not by "sin" but by "law", the very reason for the writing of the letter.

[lcn]

Why are many Calvinists prone to drinking beer, smoking cigars, and proudly displaying tattoos? Isn't that conforming to the world? Why are they so proud of this?

[biblicalquestionsansweredw]

You said there is no proof of moral inability
Romans 3: 10 - 18 and 1 Cor.2 : 14

[mrhartley]

Who’s the brother toward the end who was engaging Josh? He said he was part of a southern baptist denomination in southern Cali. I’m from Orange County ca and would be cool to connect.

[july]

TimPowerGamer:
Repeat whatever questions you posed for me earlier.

[JohnQPublic]

I love Calvinist Klein, aka Josh Smith, because he is a well-informed dedicated student of reformed theology *yet* he is *totally incapable* of bringing plausible, consistent, coherent, non-contradictory explanations to our criticisms of Calvinism that prove reformed theology fallacious.