Is Calvinism Biblical? Douglas Wilson and Steve Gregg Debate, Part 1 of 6

#calvinism #arminianism #debate #douglaswilson #dougwilson #thenarrowpath #stevegregg #freewill #predestination #tulip #soteriology #salvation #predetermined #god #sovereignty #accountability #culpability #damned #condemned #hell #heaven #choice

[TheOverlapLifewithTimBarber]

The more Shakespeare writes, the more Hamlet is free to speak?
No, that doesn't sound quite right... let's try a different angle.
The more the puppeteer moves his hands, the more free the puppet is to dance?
No, that's not quite right... hold on.
The more the gunman threatens and coerces the cashier at gunpoint, the more free they are to shovel the money into the bag?

I don't think I'm getting this "freedom" thing the way Doug thinks about it.

Steve all the way here; though I genuinely like both men.

[AlexanderosD]

I know this one's an older debate,
but Calvinists are really latching onto this Story/Author concept lately.

In regard to the definition of sovereignty, I've noticed this before -

Calvinist sovereignty;
God is on His throne, therefore He MUST be sovereign, therefore He MUST be in divine exhaustive control of all things to some extent and in some fashion.

But biblical sovereignty;
Though the nations rage, though the mountains crumble into the sea, though I be thrown into the firey furnace, I will trust in the Lord, because He is enthroned in Heaven forever.

[solideomusical]

I recently questioned the term 'ordained' that is so often used in reference to this and was told that it essentially means 'allowed it to happen.'

Regarding the sparrow that dies or the hair that falls out I have maintained that God's knowledge of it doesn't mean he caused it to happen (Scripture doesn't say God kills sparrows or makes people's hair fall out.) When the tower of Siloe fell on those people Jesus didn't say 'Yea, I (we) did that.'

This is important to me because when someone asks "what about 9/11, or the Holocaust or Jeffrey Dahmer?" are you really going to say "Well, God ordained that to happen"?

[ShallStandForEver]

Short Answer: No
Long Answer: Absolutely not

[abuelb]

God is not a genie in a bottle as arminians believe. God is not dependent or influenced by men to make His decision to save. Man's Free will has no power to save himself.

[pikehightower]

Doug...I love you brother. But, make the following sentence make sense: God decrees ALL things but that is not Determinism. I only mean that half-snarkedly. You said it twice and explained it none.

[goricaj]

I was a five point Calvinist for many years, then I was challenged by an ex Calvinist to read the whole Bible word by word and write down on one side what appeared to be free will and on the other preordained.Im now 70% Calvinistic And 30% Arminian.Obviously systematic theology has loose ends.So as the prayer says(Let thy WILL be done….

[mvm]

"We shouldn't say that Shakespeare did all of the work and Hamlet is a bunch of nothing..." Um, that's exactly what Hamlet is; a creation of a creator for the purposes of the creator. I'm not Calvinist, but even his own arguments don't defend Calvinism well when they give fictional characters value. Humans are neither fictional nor scripted.

[Orthocurious]

2:45 Doug says "He is not sovereign in all the way I am defining it" - there's the debate folks, Doug Wilson defines sovereignty differently than the rest of non Calvinistic Christianity. Doug defines sovereignty as determinism.

[paulmann]

It's all very well to say, "Scripture says", but every time Doug, or anyone, say's that, I can show you a Scripture that suggests something different.

[coreylapinas]

Hamlet has freedom? Does Doug Wilson believe in pleroma and the ideal realm. Dude he is a thought construct, not an agent. This isn't Who Killed Roger Rabbit.

[R.L.KRANESCHRADTT]

2:30 "Exhaustive Sovereignty" ... Hmmm, Sovereignty needs no adjective. BUT, as Calvinists typically do, he invents a term and redefines a word to fit his argument.

[ZeroESG.goopootoob]

I don't really care either way. The particularist can argue either side vis-à-vis the terminological matrix. The real question is...

If God is omniscient (which I affirm), and he flipped the first domino (which I affirm), and he could have done otherwise (which I also affirm), then all subsequent events are determined.

[christalone]

God is completely sovereign and man isn't. Thank you, Pastor Doug Wilson. Isaiah 14:24 "The Lord of hosts hath sworn, saying, surely as I have thought, so shall it come to pass; and as I have purposed, so shall it stand". Daniel 4:35 "And all the inhabitants of the earth are reputed as nothing: and he doeth according to his will in the army of heaven, and among the inhabitants of the earth: and none can stay his hand, or say unto him, What doest thou?"

For further understanding of God's Sovereignty, I recommend two great books that cannot be refuted: "The Sovereignty of God" by A.W. Pink, and "The Reformed Doctrine of Predestination by Lorraine Boettner (a man). Both are free online."

[bryanwallace]

If God does not have exhaustive authority, does this mean He was surprised when the fruit was eaten in the garden? Does it mean that it’s possible that Adam and Eve could have not sinned which would eliminate the need for Jesus to become man, which would ultimately spare his life and we would all be living sinlessly in the garden anyway?

What about Satan? Does God not have control over Satan? Is it possible that Satan could surprise him at the end of times and keep command of the world?

[chaddonal]

So, with Wilson mentioning the backdrop of 9/11, was this debate series recorded in late 2001 or early 2002?

[rsandy]

For Steve I recommend looking into the biblical idea of God’s wil. God’s will has many different contexts and operations and intentions. Putting them together may help. In the end we all want to believe in a good God and that has the last things under his control and will attain his overall purpose.

[David-]

Steve nailed it around the 35:00 mark . Man’s choice is his own but God determines what he chooses to determine.

[R.L.KRANESCHRADTT]

1:30 Beginning with the "author' analogy doomed Wilson's argument in his opening comments. Suggesting a legitimate comparison can be drawn between the existence of both God and man, whom God created as a living soul in his own image, and its the same as Shakespeare inventing a "fictional" character in a book is both ridiculous and, for the sake of debate, it simply begs the question at hand.
The Calvinist should simply STOP using the word Sovereign to explain their doctrine. The word already has a definition.... and it is NOT the one Calvinists suggest. They like the word because it has a 'lofty' air and sounds Holy when combined with God.... but what they really mean is Meticulous Determination... not Sovereignty. Calvinism makes God a slave to his own attributes. He is not 'free' to do as he pleases but is required to control all things at all times for no other reason than he could... if he wanted to. But Calvinism does not permit God the freedom of a true 'Sovereign' to do as he pleases.... which by definition includes doing nothing at all.

The freedom of man today is no more a threat to God than was Adam's freedom in the Garden.. or Lucifer's in Heaven, (where God lives). Lucifer was perfect in all his ways "UNTIL iniquity found in him". If he did not have freedom to choose, God it means put the iniquity there ... so he could 'find' it later??🤔🤔? If he was no longer perfect after iniquity was 'found' he could not be perfect before either. If he was created with it, even if it was dormant.

Calvinists presume God uses his power as they might if only they had it... we can all thank God they don't.

[CRYOUTbible]

Since we are talking about what scripture says, according to Dr. Wilson, I would’ve liked to heard him offer some study of the Scriptures he mentioned. I’m left still waiting for him to prove his case.