The ORCH OR Theory of Consciousness and its Critics with Stuart Hameroff

Stuart Hameroff, MD, is a professor of anesthesiology and psychology at the Banner University Medical Center of the University of Arizona in Tucson. He is also co-founder and director of the Center for Consciousness Studies at the University of Arizona. He is author of Ultimate Computing: Biomolecular Consciousness and Nanotechnology. Since 1994, he has organized the “Toward a Science of Consciousness” conferences at the University of Arizona and elsewhere. Working with Sir Roger Penrose, he is the co-author of the “Orch OR” theory of consciousness.

Here he discusses some of the major criticisms of the ORCH OR theory. He focuses on the question of how it would be possible for quantum effects to occur in the brain and how these would be related to consciousness. He also discusses questions concerning the mechanisms by which anesthesia works -- suggesting that conventional thinking about this is now being revised. He also discusses the question of whether computational power and complexity could eventually result in consciousness.

New Thinking Allowed host, Jeffrey Mishlove, PhD, is author of The Roots of Consciousness, Psi Development Systems, and The PK Man. Between 1986 and 2002 he hosted and co-produced the original Thinking Allowed public television series. He has served as vice-president of the Association for Humanistic Psychology, and is the recipient of its Pathfinder Award for outstanding contributions to the field of human consciousness. He is also past-president of the non-profit Intuition Network, an organization dedicated to creating a world in which all people are encouraged to cultivate and apply their inner, intuitive abilities.

(Recorded on July 8, 2017)

[kenanderson]

I dont know why people would have trouble with an anesthesiologist having some ideas on consciousness.

[agdnetto]

"Until we know how conciousness occurs in the brain, we cannot exclude it occurring out of the brain"

BRILLIANT!

[squamish]

This theory would be completely ignored if it were not for Penrose's vast stature in physics. Penrose is 85 years old and I hope he hangs around for another 10 years to help this theory stick around.

[Sam_Utah]

Stuart is always worth a listen, as is Jeffrey. I hope they bring the Penrose Institute to Northern California, close to me in Monterey Bay area. His work on Alzheimer's might be the first practical application of Orch-OR, the music of the mind, restoring resonance of mind and quality of life to a great many people. For the past 10 years we have been educated by Stuart and his colleagues on the mechanics of consciousness and, for me, the quantum effects of Orch-OR open a whole universe of meaning - it opens us to the inside game of the universe - the non-local that is everywhere and nowhere, full of immeasurable content stored in a Zero-point field of holographic media, outside of time and space and accessed through the quantum interaction, controlled by personal resonances. To paraphrase Neil Armstrong - One small step for man and a giant leap forward for mankind into the physics of our spiritual reality.

[markdavis]

Something with the name "ORCH OR" cannot be right. It is the sound of seals mating.

[SjMk.]

You can tell Jeremy enjoys interviewing this guy. Probably because coming from his accepted scientific background (Stuarts') theory doesn't discredit any para-psychological study or testament. I loved it when he said "Until we conclude how consciousness works in the brain we cannot conclude how consciousness works outside of the brain" - that was a bit of a mindgasm for me.

[greg]

I don't know if Jeffrey ever gets to read these but I have to say Jeffrey is one of the most genuine people on the internet. I can't watch the intro to a New Thinking Allowed episode without smiling doesn't matter how I was feeling before.

[extraterrestrial]

i was in a psyche lecture once during my course, and it came into the end of the lecture and the idea of consciousness and space-time came up, and man you wouldnt believe it, this lecture was only in the last few years, as such the orch OR have had been out for like 2 decades and guess what it wasnt even mentioned., you would think that they would have known about it. but i guess you cant expect too much in those cases sometimes.haha

[sweetchinmusic]

Consciousness and it's non dual connected nature was first discussed in the Upanishads and vedas, the ancient texts of Hinduism believed to be written around 3000 BC in ancient India..

[Xscott]

This was awesome !! I Love this channel. What a great time to be alive.

[danzigvssartre]

Hats off to Hameroff and Penrose for such a daring theory of consciousness. I'm no fan of mainstream theories that suggest consciousness is just a type of computation but I'm still can't see how ORCH OR solves the hard problem? While should the collapse of the quantum wave function be associated with conscious experience?

[acool]

Just some speculation on my part as well as some broad brush strokes but I don’t think it would be too presumptious to think that there must be some threshold point for the quantum effect that is in alignment with the leading neuro computational theories and space-time theory as well.
Since leading physicists of our time have proposed a raw time construct that is non-linear in nature (but currently we must exist in the linear construct to in order to experience the passage of time)
it could allude to and explain a kind of backward causation effect that allows one to remember the future —- deja-vu effect (?) if only for some magnitude of nanoseconds(?) or milliseconds(?) at this present stage but never - the - less, confirming such an existing process. Extending this thinking even further out and speaking hypothetically, if this whole process could be enhanced and realized through a greater understanding of both computational/algorithmic theory and quantum theory, then it would seem to indicate a lack of “free will” but that disturbing thought can be mitigated if we can entertain the notion of shifting to different space-time lines with every conscious decision and thought and opening new
.... Furthermore, if our own consciousness is part of a bigger whole then we may operate as a collective consciousness but we are more or less at this stage of human evolution operating in a format that is more or less restrictive and contained in our respective selves (as opposed to the collective) until we somehow integrate AI enhancements ( which we are already doing) Extending this even further, we might evolve beyond such hybrid forms to a much more advanced pure energy life forms that encompass all these processes but in a more efficient and streamlined manner. It seems we have already begun down that path. Seems to lend new meaning to the notion that "Everything happens for a reason and there are no coincidences". Any thoughts on this?

[leslietaylor]

Stuart mentions Dean Radin’s experiments demonstrating retrocausal affects; where skin changes were observed to have occurred in response to future events (just prior to being shown disturbing images). Stuart also uses the example of a person’s quick response to a question posed prior to their brain’s observable neuronal processing of the question posed. Seems to demonstrate nonlocality of consciousness (to say nothing of it not being limited by space-time constraints) perhaps including, for example, Radin’s computer randomly generating the various types of images (benign or startling).

[iaindelacroix]

Hameroff should study effects of DMT as this is said to give users experience of cosmic consciousness i.e. non-local .

[Chicken_Little_Syndrome]

Very interesting ideas. I don't agree with using quantum mechanics or either version of Relativity to describe reality. These theories aren't based on demonstrable reality, despite all the educational diplomas to the contrary. These ideas act like a perception filter that selects only the bits of information that reinforce the unexamined assumptions that lie at the foundation of these incorrect theories. A lot of it is circularly reasoned. That criticism aside, I think that the ORCH OR theory is something worth considering.

[summondadrummin]

'Retro causal' free will seems a further elaboration of ideas about feedback and feedback to me still appears to explain how consciousness innately steers itself? Simultaneously It projects or predicts a reality and responds to its projections.

[Buckzoo]

What’re the outcomes of the ultrasound brain stimulation studies. Any updates?

[wulphstein]

Ghosts are intrinsic to quantum mechanics. All you need is a quantum field that is a life form.

[aeolianartists]

Is it the Orch Or theory or Dr. Giulio Tononi's Integrated Information Theory that is correct, I will have to review these two theories and compare them with what I know as a psychologist and have a long think about it.

[johnege]

Isnt there a study that demonstrates music can decrease the amount of antisesisa needed, and how does that relate to his therapy?