Irreducible Complexity and Flagella - Deconstructing ID

Part 2 of a 7-part series with Dr. Eugenie C. Scott.: Debunking Intelligent Design.
Dr. Scott criticizes claims by creationists that flagellated bacteria (flagellum) are an example of irreducible complexity. She concludes that examples of irreducible complexity by proponents of creation science are empirically wrong.
Recorded at the 'Biology of Genomes' meeting at Cold Spring Harbor Laboratory, June 1, 2009.

[inspirobotinspiration]

For those interested, here are two studies which explain (1) how the flagellum of the bacterium _E. coli_ can have up to a third of its proteins removed and still function, and (2) a structural precursor to the flagellum, not yet functional for locomotion but entirely functional for active transport of molecules out of the cell:
(1) "Construction of a minimum-size functional flagellin of Escherichia coli" by G Kuwajima in _Journal of Bacteriology._
(2) "Type III secretion systems and bacterial flagella: Insights into their function from structural similarities" by Ariel Blocker, Kaoru Komoriya and Shin-Ichi Aiwaza in _Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences USA._
(links not allowing me to comment for some reason)

[vojislavbelic]

Ok, there are multiple types of flagella, how does that debunk IC?

[zakoder]

@KnightofMotley
Indeed she didn't give a detailed explanation of the possible different functions of the bacterial flagellum in the two minute video... Why did you think she would?
Irreducible complexity has been rebutted time and again elsewhere.

She only pointed out the fallacies in ID reasoning. The fact that an answer can't be given to a problem doesn't prove anything one way or the other, it simply means we have insufficient data.

[crabbieappleton]

Simply put, ID is intellectual laziness, like the college freshman not finding information on Wikipedia and thus deciding that it doesn't exist.

[ronocko]

@KnightofMotley I'd also question how it is more logically feasible to conclude that design is the result of a mind when you haven't even proven that any transcendent mind exists asserting one as an answer because you're incapable of accepting that a rare occurrence happened is in no way logical.

[lukepaul]

I don't see her argument except I noted the annoyed emotional 'poster boy' comment at the beginning sure sign logic will not follow

[timgardiner]

What a major league cop out. Here is some education for this lady:

Intelligent Design (ID) is the science of detecting certain characteristics universally associated with intelligently designed systems. These characteristics are known to have resulted first from the plans, concepts, and ideas of an intelligent mind. Hence, intelligent design. Moreover, intelligent design is the only explanation that has actually been tested and proven to account for these characteristics. Therefore, wherever these characteristics are observed, it is concluded that intelligent design is the cause. ID theory specifically focuses on these characteristics observed in biology and cosmology. They are in fact observed in biology and cosmology.

It is proven that intelligent design produces certain characteristics of complex-engineering systems. A complex-engineering system is any system that depends on the coordinated interaction of multiple parts for the purpose of achieving a top-level function.

What are these certain characteristics?

Specified Complexity – it is a requirement that the parts of every complex-engineering system be specifically arranged a certain way so that a top-level function be realized. The system’s parts must be specified a particular way so that the system’s purpose happens. Biological example: ALL biological life! Seriously. Name any organism or sub system within an organism and it is specified and complex.

Supporting question: think about any complex-engineering system. Is there a specific way the parts must be arranged in order for the top-level function/purpose of that system to be realized? Answer: unequivocally, YES.

Irreducible Complexity – this is a highly specialized form of specified complexity. Some complex-engineering systems are absolutely dependent upon the exact specific arrangement of all of its parts for top-level function to occur. If just any one part of the system is re-arranged, then there is a complete breakdown of the system’s top-level function. The system’s purpose, as it is, requires interdependency among all of its parts. Biological example: blood clotting.

Foresight and Planning – this is the original concept, or idea of the complex-engineering system before the system is physically completed. This is the first requirement in the making of a complex-engineering system. This concept, or idea is often depicted in a physical set of instructions that plan exactly how to make the system. Biological example: DNA

Engineering Methods – these methods have been discovered by human beings and used to develop sophisticated engineering systems. These advanced engineering methods are used to accomplish complicated tasks. These methods, which have been proven to result from intelligent design, are exhibited within biological systems.

Negative feedback for stable operation
Thresholding and discrimination
Frequency filtering
Control and signaling
Information storage
Timing and synchronization
Addressing
Hierarchies of function
Redundancy

[mosesexodus]

★ “I am quite conscious that my speculations run quite beyond the bounds of true science.” (Charles Darwin, 1800’s Evolution Theorist, in a Letter to Asa Gray June 18, 1857) ★

[den]

Is the human mind an intelligent design?

[CatherineScott]

She answered the claims of the creationist herself 1:54, let me rephrase, just because one who believes in God can't explain it to you doesn't mean there is no God. Trust me when you see him he will explain himself very, very clearly. I'm not poking fun and I love people who want to discuss a subject an not argue about it. Thank you ma'am.

[ronocko]

@KnightofMotley older than 6, 000 years old and the world not being flat.or that there is no evidence for a world flood. How does DNA prove evidence this sounds like an argument from ignorance but I'll let you try and make a point before debunking it.

[ronocko]

@KnightofMotley They say there is no God under the premise of there being absolutely no evidence for one existing. Would you ever make the claim there are no unicorns or leprechauns? I have before It doesn't I'm not open to there existence if evidence arises in the future.

[ronocko]

@KnightofMotley I think we're covering far too many topics in one conversation hence four 500 character comments but its always good to have discussions. As far as the finely tuned argument think about a hand of poker what is the probability you are going to get a royal flush its the same probability you are going to get any other sequence of cards, In fact most parts of the universe are very anti life as we know it and I'd say that attests against intelligent design.

[ronocko]

@KnightofMotley The bible says in Isaiah 11:12 "And he shall set up an ensign for the nations, and shall assemble the outcasts of Israel, and gather together the dispersed of Judah from the four corners of the earth."
The next verse shows how the bible states everything was formed for the earth which we know to be false. "Heavenly luminaries were formed to provide light for Earth and markers for the seasons (Genesis 1:14-16)" I think we can both agree biblical accounts of creation are all false

[Kase]

This is like a rehearsed answer. Skeptics always start by saying "there's not one type of flagellum" which literally has no relevance here.

[mosesexodus]

★“When we descend to details, we can prove that no one species has changed (i.e. we cannot prove that a single species has changed): nor can we prove that the supposed changes are beneficial, which is the groundwork of the theory.” (Charles Darwin, 1800’s Evolution Theorist, in his letter to G. Bentham May 22, 1863)”★

[JohnDoe-dpsk]

Do this... Give every mathematical step how life started and became complex through the human brain because no one else can

The Hebrew of Genesis one teaches common ancestry if you look at the Hebrew language ancient e Jews many ancient Jews believed this that there were people before Adam and that the 1st animals were changing forms

But to show that everything happened by chance and chance alone I think you're far from that

[MsJohnnythunder]

We don't say it's unexplainable, we just disagree on the explanation...

So she does admit that irreducible complexity exists and that science does not know the reason. Interesting.

[DimitarBozhanov]

What a cheap cop out. The claim is NOT that irreducible complexity advocates a "God of the gaps" concept. It's a sheer fallacy trying to argue against ID on the basis of such clumsy misrepresentations. The claim is that irreducible complexity points toward intelligent design and that's obvious even for a third-grader. If the ID skeptics out there have a better and legit way to explain how all those mysterious irreducibly complex natural miracles occur as a "mindless unguided process" (and it's not just the fagella, there's a plenitude of examples), well let's hear what they have to say, the burden of proof is clearly on them. Of course, they give us pretty much nothing in that regard but vague promises that one day probably, may be, eventually they'll figure out an alternative materialistic explanation. Well, until then, fellas (if ever and my guess is never), the obviously better, more logical, more meaningful, intellectually consistent, philosophically rigorous and overwhelmingly reasonable assumption is INTELLIGENT DESIGN. Get over it!