Calvinism and Catholicism (w/ Redeemed Zoomer)

In this episode Trent sits down with Protestant YouTuber Redeemed Zoomer to answer his questions about Catholicism.

00:00 Introduction
03:00 Which ‘One True Church’ is the One True Church?
11:00 Is Eastern Orthodox the safer ‘One True Church’ option?
16:00 Discussion of the infallibility of the ‘One True Church’, Catholic vs. Protestant
18:00 How does the Catholic Church perceive Protestants?
24:00 Sola Fide / Faith Alone Salvation
29:00 The Calvinist ‘Elect’ and Salvation
34:00 Predestination and Salvation
41:00 Thomist Predestination vs Calvinist Predestination
53:00 Calvinist view on ‘The Fall’
57:00 Faith and Works
1:18:30 The Magisterium and it’s Teachings
1:23:00 Catholic Church on marrying a non-Christian
1:30:40 Veneration of the Saints

[TheCounselofTrent]

I'm glad RZ came on and thank you all for being patient with the video mishap we had. I was so bummed when my connecting dock broke right before the interview (hence why I used my laptop camera). But I'd much rather have a solid interview with good audio with less than ideal video than good video and less than ideal audio.

[redeemedzoomer]

Thanks for having me on the show! I think it was very informative and productive. God bless!

[manueldejesusrojassandi]

We NEED Trent building a church in Minecraft.

[MasterofLightning]

Zoomer's content got me into theology in general. I'm Catholic and I've found his stuff extremely helpful for my own faith. Thank you and God bless, Zoomer!

[ConvertingCatholic]

Mom is Mormon and my Dad is Non Denom. I was heavily involved in both churches. Devout even... Im Now in RCIA converting to Catholicism . Viva Cristo Rey!

[Erick_Ybarra]

Thanks for the shout out, Trent! Very kind

[ilovechrist]

Orthodox christian here but love these chats both so chilled and humble

Fruitful conversation

[davidestate]

I was born and Baptized a Catholic but after my young days in the church, I left the church to live my own story. My story was not good, hard and very bad but I lived it. I was approached by Baptist minister at one of my friend's home. I went to the church a few times, like the music and singing but felt empty. Later a Jehovah's Witness knocked my my home door and I answered. I invited them in and we spoke for some time, well actually they spoke most of the time. They invited me to their Kingdom Hall but I don't know, it looked more like a community center and not a place in which God would dwell.. so I didn't stay there. 25 years later, when my life was at my ends, I tried to end my life. I didn't die that day but I had 3 days to really think about my life. When I got out, I was just talking by the church I went to as child. It was Sunday so I walked into it during morning mass. It was like God was speaking to me, like the mass all the words were for me, it was like my soul woke up and the tears came down my eyes.. the Lord God, spoke to me and I stay in the Catholic Church of my youth. I ended going to the Holy Land and walking the path of Jesus, while I was there, I could feel Jesus, it was like he was walking with me. I hard this burning feeling inside, something today I wish so many people could feel. God spoke to me in my dreams, answered my prays and opened my eyes to another world... a world of confused Christians, Islam and God haters... I started my journey to be my Church's only Apologetic... were I help many Catholics and any non-Catholics, do tours of the Church and even teach Catholicism to my Catholic family. I couldn't be more happier, something I have never felt, or enjoyed without God my Father in Heaven. Thanks Trent for doing all you have done for our Church.

[iqgustavo]

🎯 Key Takeaways for quick navigation:

00:00 *🎙️ Discussing the Concept of the One True Church*
- Exploring the concept of the one true church and how it influences religious beliefs,
- Differentiating between the Catholic and Protestant perspectives on the one true church,
- Examining the implications of ecclesiology in theological discourse.
03:00 *🏛️ Understanding the Role of the Catholic Church*
- Delving into the historical perspective of the Roman Catholic Church's claim as the one true church,
- Comparing the Catholic view of ecclesiology with Protestant and Orthodox perspectives,
- Discussing the papacy and its significance in maintaining unity within the church.
08:05 *📚 Exploring Doctrinal Similarities and Differences*
- Highlighting similarities and differences between Reformed theology and Catholicism,
- Examining the distinctions between the visible and invisible church,
- Considering historical views on church unity and schisms within Christianity.
17:37 *📜 Understanding the status of Protestants according to the Catholic Church*
- The Catholic Church traditionally defines a Christian as someone who has a valid baptism.
- Valid baptism is performed with the correct matter (water) and form (words), according to the mind of the Church.
- Protestants with valid baptisms are considered Christians, though theological differences exist.
20:34 *🛐 Authority of Church teachings and levels of assent required*
- Dogmas, infallible teachings, such as the Resurrection of Christ, require full assent of faith.
- Infallible teachings not dogmatically defined, like the validity of a Council, also require assent.
- Teachings requiring submission of mind and will, like immediate soul creation by God, necessitate acceptance but allow personal doubt.
24:06 *🤔 Interpretation of "salvation by faith alone" and implications for Catholics*
- Pope Benedict XVI noted that formulations like "saved by faith alone" aren't inherently wrong if faith includes works of love.
- Catholic understanding distinguishes between doctrines one must believe and the eternal fate of those who reject specific doctrines.
32:02 *🎓 Reconciling exclusivist views with the diversity of religious beliefs*
- Strict exclusivism challenges the salvation of those who haven't encountered specific religious truths.
- Calvinist predestination offers a theological shield against criticisms of unequal opportunities for salvation based on birth or geography.
- The tension between exclusivist and inclusive perspectives shapes discussions on evangelization and religious diversity.
35:05 *📜 Overview of Calvinist perspective on predestination*
- Discussion on the Calvinist belief in God's sovereignty in granting grace unequally.
- Comparison of Calvinist and non-Calvinist perspectives on the sufficiency of God's grace for salvation.
- Exploring objections to Calvinism regarding the fairness and justice of God's actions.
36:14 *🛤️ Calvinist perspective on finding election in Christ*
- Explanation of the Calvinist view that finding election lies in Christ, not in oneself or in a particular church.
- Discussion on the role of theological accuracy and sacraments in Calvinism's view of salvation.
- Addressing objections and complexities regarding individuals' understanding of Christ and church affiliation.
37:51 *🎚️ Perspectives on God's grace and salvation outside the visible church*
- Exploration of whether members of the elect can exist outside the Christian faith.
- Clarification on the covenant promises of eternal life within the visible Church.
- Consideration of individual salvation possibilities based on invincible ignorance or other factors.
40:11 *🏝️ Understanding God's election and means of salvation*
- Discussion on God's election and the means through which it operates.
- Clarification on God's unconditional election and the role of evangelism and sacraments.
- Exploration of theological nuances within Calvinism and comparison with other perspectives.
42:00 *🧭 Differentiating Calvinism from Calvinistic evangelicals*
- Distinction between various streams of thought within Calvinism, including supralapsarian and infralapsarian positions.
- Clarification on the rejection of equal ultimacy within Calvinism.
- Discussion on nuances in understanding the gospel and salvation within different theological traditions.
52:34 *📜 Differences between Calvin and Thomas on predestination and election*
- Calvin and Thomas both agree on unconditional election.
- Calvin's view of predestination is more Christocentric, emphasizing Christ as the elect and believers being elect in him.
- The substantial difference lies in the perseverance of the saints (PE) in Calvinism, where Calvinists believe in the perseverance of the elect, while Thomas believed in baptismal regeneration.
53:16 *💭 Views on original sin and the fall*
- Original sin, according to the Catholic view, is a deprivation of grace inherited from Adam's rejection of God.
- Calvinists differ in their views on whether God decreed or permitted the fall, leaning towards the idea of God permitting it while not outside his providence.
- The understanding of reprobation and election varies among Calvinists, with some emphasizing individual responsibility for damnation.
57:07 *🕊️ Understanding salvation: Faith, works, and Union with Christ*
- Catholics believe in salvation through union with Christ, which encompasses faith and works.
- Salvation is viewed as a process in Catholicism, involving initial grace through baptism and ongoing sanctification.
- The concept of merit in Catholic theology is nuanced, emphasizing God's promises and the role of works in salvation as a response to grace.
01:10:04 *🛠️ The difference between Calvinist and Catholic views on salvation*
- Calvinist and Protestant views generally assert that bad works cannot cause the loss of salvation.
- Catholic doctrine suggests that a bad work can lead to the loss of the gift of justification.
- Main difference lies in whether bad works evidence lack of regeneration or not.
01:11:39 *🌱 Understanding the parable of the sower*
- The parable of the sower illustrates different responses to the gospel.
- Shallow soil represents superficial faith that may seem genuine but lacks depth.
- Jesus' parable suggests that some people may appear saved but are not truly regenerate.
01:12:23 *📜 Exploring apostasy and regeneration*
- Traditional Calvinist and Presbyterian beliefs acknowledge apostasy as a real phenomenon.
- Not all apostates fit the category of "they were of us, but not really."
- Regeneration remains a theological category with eschatological implications.
01:14:13 *🤔 Clarifying the relationship between faith, works, and salvation*
- Discussion revolves around whether salvation is contingent on avoiding evil works or actively doing good works.
- Understanding of works extends beyond traditional good deeds to include avoiding evil actions.
- Different interpretations exist regarding adherence to commandments and Sabbath observance.
01:17:41 *🤝 Perspectives on marriage between Christians and non-Christians*
- Catholic perspective allows for marriage between a Catholic and non-Christian with proper dispensation.
- Protestant view emphasizes marriage between Christians due to the covenantal nature of marriage.
- Interpretations differ based on theological frameworks regarding marriage as a sacrament or covenant.
01:26:30 *📜 Calvinist and Catholic views on marriage and divorce*
- Exploring differences between Catholic and Protestant perspectives on marriage dissolution.
- Calvinist perspective: Marriage dissolution applies if one spouse abandons the other due to conversion to Christianity.
- Catholic perspective: Marriage remains valid even if one spouse abandons the other, emphasizing the permanence of marriage bonds.
01:27:25 *🤔 Interpreting Paul's teachings and Protestant views on marriage*
- Debate over the perpetually binding nature of Paul's teachings among Protestants.
- Protestant interpretation of Paul's writings on marriage and Christian faithfulness.
01:29:05 *🤝 Protestant views on marriage between Christians and non-Christians*
- Discussion on Protestant traditional understanding regarding marriage between Christians and non-Christians.
- Clarification on the requirement for Christian marriage partners in some Protestant denominations.
01:30:45 *🙏 Protestant concerns about Catholic practices: praying to Saints and Mary*
- Exploration of Protestant skepticism towards Catholic practices such as praying to Saints and veneration of Mary.
- Comparison of Protestant and Catholic perspectives on devotional practices and iconography.
01:32:35 *🔍 Recognizing potential abuses in religious devotion*
- Acknowledgment of the potential for abuse in both Protestant and Catholic religious practices.
- Examination of historical instances of superstition and idolization within religious traditions.

[GratiaPrima_]

I’m so, so glad Catholics are starting to talk to Calvinists more. Good stuff. I converted from Reformed Baptist.

[ChungGuss]

Love this. Interview Christian Wagner or Classical Theist next

[manny]

My favorite Catholic Evangelist and Trent Horn haha.
But for real RZ's IG is hilarious how often he's like "why do people keep converting to Catholocism from my page?" Haha

[ekatrinya]

RZ got me to question what my exact beliefs were and made me a little less anti Catholic. Ripperger made me consider that Catholicism could actually be true. Then Trent answered just about every question or objection I've ever had. I come from an anti Catholic family and my husband is only halfway on board but I would love to convert. Baby #2 due any day so there's a lot going on at the moment, but my husband is very open to listening to debates and anything from Trent Horn. I'm hoping to belong to the Catholic Church before baby #3 🙏🏻

[normanreategui]

As a Protestant desiring to learn more about the Roman Catholic faith, I absolutely loved this conversation. Thank you to both!

[Bxtcxt]

Redeemed Zommer will be a Catholic by the end of the decade. 🙏🏻✝️

As Chesterton said

It is impossible to be just to the Catholic Church. The moment a man ceases to pull against it he feels a tug towards it. The moment he ceases to shout it down he begins to listen to it with pleasure. The moment he tries to be fair to it he begins to be fond of it.

[jeffreperezhernandez]

As someone who left Protestantism to embrace Catholicism, there needs to be more ecumenical dialogue to display Christ likeness. This was awesome! Thank you Trent Horn for being a perfect example of being Christ like! 😊🙏

[hismajesty]

I’m Protestant and trying to learn more about Catholicism. This video helped a lot.

[gimmeanswers]

No way my two fav Christian YouTubers just collaborated! Chat is this real? God bless RZ and Trent!

[thirdparsonage]

Great conversation! I appreciate the collegiality! As a former Protestant turned Catholic, it almost makes me cry sometimes when I see Catholics and Protestants in loving dialogue wishing each other well!

[rickmiller]

I really enjoyed the dialogue versus debate format. As I listened through the program I understood why redeemed zoomer minimizes the differences between calvinism and catholicism. He has reached an understanding of the reformed position that brings it very close. Having been a presbyterian and had my masters at a school which is in the reformed tradition, I think his positions, as an entirety, are held by a very small minority of reformed, even those very schooled in the reformed confessions.