William Lane Craig vs James White: does Calvinism or Molinism best explain Joseph's evil brothers?

Clip: Dr William Lane Craig and Dr James White debate whether the story of Joseph and his evil brothers is an example of the Calvinist's or Molinist's view of God's sovereignty.

[mpleandre]

I disagree with Calvinism simply because of this: if God eternally punishes entities, human or angelical, for doing something he caused them to do, then the punishment isn't justice; it's cruelty.

[jshauns]

WLC's expression listening to White is clearly one of bafflement.

[BenElyon]

Bill is looking at James like Grandfather looks at his college grandson. Lol

[MalachSafarad]

Love the way James White presents the story of Joseph like if it was the smoking gun evidence for Calvinism i.e. determinism, then all of the sudden William Lane Craig has a joyful chuckle, and James White responds with a “downcast face”. William Lane Craig finishes by demonstrating that the Joseph story is a great example of “libertarian Free Will”.

[Civilwarpiper]

White’s lava lamps probably exploded after Craig gave his response 🤣

[bayreuth]

Craig totally demolished "Dr" White in this clip. White likes to pretend that his Calvinist reading of the text is the _only_ one that makes sense but it really doesn't. He engages in eisegesis, not exegesis.

[markriser]

It sounds like Dr. White is trying to make Dr. Craig's point for him.

[anthonym.]

James White has clearly lost his fast ball over the years. Just wow.

[yourhappyuncle]

that William's laugh is priceless lol

[joefrescoln]

One of the things that I do wholeheartedly agree with James White about, is that it doesn't say they're just puppets on a string. 0:40 👏

[goblintown]

Bill’s face be like: “whatchyoo talkin’ ‘bout Jimmy?”

[mediumraresteak]

D.A. Carson would be a great guest on Calvinism to discuss with WLC

[MALLYGEEZ]

I agree with WLC on this. I actually don't agree with calvinism. But these are just disputes among brethren.

[vancesnyder]

I was wondering about Mr. Craig's look-I do not often see him like this. Just in this brief clip I can see Mr. White misses the point of Molinism. There were weaknesses in the thought of the Reformers that Molin was trying address.

[DanielApologetics]

You know what else was not thought in church history for 1500 years...?

[lukeish]

The reason these kind of debates of ideas are hard and unsolvable, is because these are abstract ideas at the human level. We're just in continue litigation of the Bible, what means what. And because protestants ( I'm one myself) believe that believing the right doctrine gets you to heaven and the wrong to hell, we lose much sleep and debate time on what exactly every verse of the Bible means.

[biblebunny]

Proverbs 16:9 - "A man’s heart plans his way, But the LORD directs his steps." - Based on this we have some level of free-will (we make the plans) but it is the Lord who allows us to take a step and can change our course/ direction. I feel like both ideas (God's Soverignty and Free-will) have good points and hope to grow in my knowledge in this but know when I don't know - God does and that can give me peace.

[fitness]

Wow - open theism, subjunctive clauses, middle knowledge - I was an English examiner and I still got a headache listening to this. I’ve listened to many Calvinists now and I’d really just like a simple answer - are you saying that God created evil ? I even heard the late Norm MacDonald talking about this in his final years of life.
I hear the arguments that He did everything for His glory, I hear that He restrains evil - but could a Calvinist give me a simple answer to that question as I’m still confused by the argument.

[rolysantos]

*Here is a quote from WLC*

WILLIAM LANE CRAIG
"God didn't move the brothers to hate Joseph....that would make God the author of evil"

*Here is THE BIBLE*
And the LORD made His people very fruitful, more numerous than their foes,
*WHOSE HEARTS HE TURNED TO HATE HIS PEOPLE* to conspire against His servants. Psalm 105:24-25

Granted, WLC may argue that God created the circumstances in which he KNEW what the Egyptians "would do" but still, they did it by their "free will." True, because it was evil and EVIL is the ONLY thing man has the "free will" to do. We do not have the free will to change our NATURE to do good, any more than a rattlesnake can change it's nature to be like a harmless kitten.
Yet we see clearly *"WHOSE HEARTS HE (GOD) TURNED..."*

*But then the Egyptians DO do Good in next Psalm*

Psalm 106:
YET, he took note of their distress when he heard their cry;

45 for their sake he remembered his covenant and out of his great love he relented.

46 *HE CAUSED all who held them captive to show them mercy*

Did the Egyptians show mercy to Israel? YES
WHY? Because GOD CAUSED THEM TO!!!

Exodus 12:36
"The LORD caused the Egyptians to look favorably on the Israelites, and they gave the Israelites whatever they asked for. So they stripped the Egyptians of their wealth!"

BOTTOM LINE:
*GOD MOVES the hearts of men where HE DESIRES for HIS PURPOSE* and there is NO evil in what He does but men WILL BE held accountable for their own evil!

Proverbs 21:1
The king’s heart is a stream of water in the hand of the LORD; *HE TURNS IT WHEREVER HE WILL*

[yvindEilevstjnn-zhxc]

This is how it looks like when little league pitchers is trying to throw balls at the major league heavy hitters. It is adorable.