Putting Food-Producing Elements in All Layers of the Food Forest?

Question

Should we aim to have food-producing elements in all layers of the food forest? Won't the higher layers shade out the lower layers and make this difficult once the food forest gets to a certain level of maturity? I get the idea of succession, but why then do we say a food forest mimics a natural forest if all the layers are formed by edible (and support for the edible) species and we intervening so much? In tropical climates, it's well known that some species like coffee and cacao like the shade, but in other climates, I'm not so sure. I can find edible perennial species for every layer of a forest in a Mediterranean climate but my doubt is whether they can co-exist and be productive at the same time.

Key Takeaways

The idea is to do the least amount of work for the most amount of production. In some areas, some things do shade out and move towards the edge as time passes. And, the food forest is not all food: there is timber, fiber, craft, dyes, fungi (food)… Things in the food forest do change over time, and it can layer itself with what currently fits. Or, we can more attentively manage it by adjusting the overstory and creating more clearings within the forest to aid the food-producing species.

In Holy Oaks, Massachusetts, with two feet of snow annually, Eric Toensmeier trialed over 400 perennial vegetables in his food forest on a quarter-acre lot, ultimately settling on the best 200 in the end. That’s a huge selection of perennials. There is plenty of diversity, even in cold climates. The same can be said for the tropics. You just have to realize how many choices you can have and extended the forest edge to produce it.

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About Geoff:

Geoff is a world-renowned permaculture consultant, designer, and teacher that has established demonstration sites that function as education centers in all the world's major climates. Geoff has dedicated his life to spreading permaculture design across the globe and inspiring people to take care of the earth, each other, and to return the surplus.

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Permaculture integrates land, resources, people and the environment through mutually beneficial synergies – imitating the no waste, closed loop systems seen in diverse natural systems. Permaculture applies holistic solutions that are applicable in rural and urban contexts and at any scale. It is a multidisciplinary toolbox including agriculture, water harvesting and hydrology, energy, natural building, forestry, waste management, animal systems, aquaculture, appropriate technology, economics and community development.

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[peterellis]

Another aspect is the existence of spring ephemerals, in my climate ramps are an example. They come up very early in the spring before the deciduous tree leaves have come out. It's not just shade tolerance, timing is also a factor.

[NashvilleMonkey]

We have a fence that shades the garden in the afternoon, and the plants do much better on the east side than they do on the late scorching west side, so even the most sun-loving plants can benefit in many areas from some shade. If the fence were a food tree then all the better. About everything producing at once, ancient people had continuous food forest systems spanning hundreds of years, and a new system of succession just starting the process of setting up isn't going to instantly be the main source of food until enough space is in production to do so~

[jozefdebeer]

Hey Geoff! I loved this video. I watch many of of videos always remembering that I can’t grow most of the stuff that you grow since I live on the Canadian prairies. But the principles that you teach apply. I love the apples, plums. berries and veggies that we can grow here. And I do enjoy the odd important tropical fruits and veggies

[laurabartoli]

Stefan Sobkowiak from The Permaculture Orchard in Quebec, Canada has a fruit tree layer, a shrub layer and a perennial layer all producing. This video summarises and expands on that concept. He mentioned you in one of his videos, that's how I found your channel.

[nathangardenfawkes]

Just what I needed Jeff :) Thank you Mister :)

[monsurbanpatch]

I really love to watch when you makeover someone's urban yard into a food forest.

[busker]

Annuals are good for variety, and for something enjoyable to do with all the time a food forest saves us!

[nutequest]

I’d love to grow avocado again. The tropical Anna apple grows well in warm climates. I had a couple in Brisbane that produced. Also star apple, I really like them. Having said that I love berries and stone fruit so adapting to this cold climate has been fun. Lots of different foods grow here.

[katharsisevan]

This man is a genius ! Keep going Geoff ;)

[allisonjsmith]

These are great, very inspiring! I keep thinking of how to add more elements to my garden.

[dinosaur]

In a hot climate, it is important to use big trees to protect middle and small trees.
Last summer, I saw a big lemon tree dry out, which was more than 2 meters with fruit. I couldn't believe my eyes...

[xyzsame]

Holzer can grow kiwi and cherries and lemons in the mountains. Surely ! there is one variety of cherries that would grow in the sub tropics. Maybe in half shade, so it does not get too hot ?

[casapermaculture]

شكرا جزيلا geoff
على المعلومات القيمة لك مني كل التقدير والاحترام

[Klrb]

Actually you can have apples even in Africa. Visit Kuffel Creek and see what they are doing. I live in the subtropics in Perú and we have apples too, we never get below 13 celsius. I bet you could find a variety of cherry able to grow there Geoff. That is the magic of pushing the zone, you can adapt cultivars that are not native to that climate but end up being productive, it's just a matter of trying it out.

[dorksplorer]

I took Geoff's permaculture course a few years ago, but lived in the Midwest then, where things grew with no problem. I now live at a high elevation (6200') in New Mexico. Less than 12" rain and less than a foot of snow a year, and crazy daily temperature swings. Been having a heck of a time getting anything to grow. Anyone live in this type of climate, have suggestions on plants and/or sources of info that could help me? Thank you

[CorwynGC]

I think there is a bit of subtext in the question that needs addressing. When we talk about 'productive' plants, it is easy to get the impression that other plants aren't as energy intensive as productive plants. This just isn't the case, productive just means that *humans* can eat the output. For example an oak puts just as much energy into its acorns as an apple tree puts into its fruit. But since most acorns are not eaten by humans, it isn't considered a 'productive' tree.
There is a limit to the energy any piece of ground is getting, as well as other resources, but making a higher percentage of your plants be human food producers won't affect how much can grow. It does mean that more of the nutrients are being removed from the area, and care should be taken to get those nutrients back into the soil, so make sure your human output is getting back into the nutrient cycle for your food forest.

[susanoakes]

Thank you, Geoff, you packed so much information into a few minutes.

[Christodophilus]

By understanding the natural outcome, you're already dealing with growing in a Mediterranean climate - a drop in edible production, is actually the best case scenario. The worst, is losing all your perennials before they can establish. Because there's minimal rainfall, but high evaporation, during summer. The point of human intervention is to extend the harvest, within the limitations of the natural inputs. Whether that be opening up the canopy through pruning, or digging a swale to capture rainfall during winter (if your'e in a Mediterranean climate).

[ayla]

Any hints for what can compete with poison oak in a Mediterranean/foothills climate? I was thinking wild grape but I think it's too dry for them to thrive. Any ideas permie folks?

[KevinMooresrm]

As always Enthralling Educational and Entertaining Geoff...apples in Bali 😲.. gonna need time to process that and all its relativities ..cranial update/reboot 😵