Why is the 9/8 time signature so confusing?

This is a giant exploration of rhythmic concepts for songwriters, and the confusion surrounding the 9/8 time signature as well as all other compound meters. There is a good solid rant in here that gets to the heart of a topic I’d like to explore more, which is the outdated and relic teaching methods still used by modern music educators in professional academic settings.

Liked this video? You’ll probably enjoy these other rhythmically related videos:

A few things to mention- when converting 9/8 to 3/4 with triplets, it’s important to remember that the tempo markings must indicate the correct beat. If I’m doing 3/4 with triplets, my quarter note pulse is the one I’d be using for my metronome, while in compound triple meter, I’d write my tempo marker as a dotted quarter note.
Also, the graphics during one part of the animation show the wrong beaming of 8th notes. Minor detail but still, it should represent the underlying pulse (as I specifically state!).

Here’s the songs I mentioned:

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Table of Contents
00:00 Intro
00:42 Demonstrating Basic 9/8
02:30 Making a 9/8 Groove
07:14 The Traditional Approach
09:04 An Example from Francisco Tarrega
11:14 rant
12:36 Polymeter, Triplets, and Twista

[fleeb]

I think I saw something in Early Music Sources that suggests, maybe, the classical 9/8 view might take strong influence from very early music, and mensural notation. What we think of as 9/8, in mensural notation, becomes perfectum maior (circle with a dot in the middle). Imperfectum maior would be 6/8 to us (semi-circle with a dot in the middle). I wonder how much of this influence carried forward to how we teach music today, rather than a more modern thinking espoused here, where we may subdivide in whatever way we choose to generate the rhythms we seek in our compositions, and not get too hung up on the time signature used to convey this meaning.

[paris]

i have a funny story abt 9/8. first of all im Greek and most of our traditional music is in odd time, usually 7/8 or 9/8. So Im in this band and our instructor had a gig where they played such songs and they had trouble figure out a part in 9/8 i think. thay had been talking abt it and of the guys goes: dont worry if you fall out of the beat just follow the audience's clapping. he did indeed fall out of the beat but because the audience was clapping the 3+2+2+2 pattern (without them even knowing) he jumped right back in. idk if it is just me that finds it fascinating😂

[EminTuralic]

I'm from the Balkans and 9/8 is so engraved into our culture that people with no musical background, almost completely tonedeaf, can follow the rhythm without any problem, dance, and sing along to them. Always found it odd (no pun intended).

[viridianloom]

You should do a video sometime on how to make 4/4 NOT sound like 4/4. Similar to how you explained there's a lot of ways you can write in 9/8 instead of three groups of three, there's also ways to "prog up" 4/4 :)

[aaronclift]

Dave Brubeck introduced the 2 + 2 + 2 + 3 9/8 rhythm to Western audiences with “Blue Rondo a la Turk” (which was in turn inspired by Turkish music).

[IndependenceGuitar]

Time signatures like this are the reason I encourage every musician to learn basic konnakol.

[ataberkyavas]

In Turkey it's very common, especially in areas closer to Balkans. Gypsys love this for some reason, evey gypsy folk song is in 9/8 in Turkey.

[denselman]

Genesis- “Supper’s Ready”, Apocalypse in 9/8. Tony Banks still plays in 4/4. Crazy.

[stefandoerr]

I just wanted to point out that 9/8 is very common in Greek, Turkish and probably more eastern music traditions (and thus not especially confusing to our ears). For example the fast karsilama rythm which is counted as 12 12 12 123. And of course the zeibekiko dance which is a very slow 9, nearly feels like a 4+5.

[InventorZahran]

I often use 9/8 when transcribing waltzes with a swing rhythm, similar to how 6/8 can be used to transcribe a 4/4 swing.

[gwbuilder]

Thanks Jake! This is the first time I've ever heard someone describe 9/8 in a useful and practical manner. Harpsichord music was commonly written in 9/8, but never really explained very well. The funny thing is, when counted as triplets it's a standard waltz beat or rhythm. Not very modern, but quite practical.

[mikescofield]

Great explanation of 9/8 (and related) timing. You're right, your explanation is much clearer than the more traditional tutorials I've watched. Thanks!

[williambendix]

The song "jambi" by tool is actually a really good example of the difference grouping can make. The drums on the intro play the pseudo 4/4 you mention (1 and 2 and 3 and 4 trip let) and then in the verse the kick drum goes to more the compound feel (1 trip let 2 trip let 3 trip let)

[jhbonarius]

4:50 I immediatly see why the grouping is important. As the hihat is not grouped differently for the second bar, I get confused with the bass timing

[MaggaraMarine]

I feel like a lot of people here in comments who say "I'm feeling 9/8 as 3+3+3" or "I'm feeling 9/8 as 2+2+2+3" are missing the point. 9/8 shouldn't be felt in one way. The way you should feel 9/8 depends on the context. In older classical music, it's basically always 3+3+3 (and this is where the idea of 9/8 being a compound triple meter comes from - old theory books describe it in this way, because they focus on classical music, where this is the way 9/8 is felt, at least the vast majority of time). In more modern music, there are more options (either 3 groups of 3, or some combination of 3 groups of 2 and one group of 3).

[juanibiapina]

Both approaches are useful to me Jake. Thanks for actually bringing them both.

[Outside]

I wrote a song that uses 9/4. Odd time signatures groove so much.

[ariesmp]

As soon as that 9th note hit, it was like Google earth zooming in on the Balkans.

[TrueFileJunkie]

(grooves goes on) -> that sounded really cool and spooky, you should make a track using exclusively a drum track and your voice counting out beats as monotonously as possible while still stopping some times. Will have some nice creepy "numbers station" vibe.

[cassianopaim]

It's one of those your-timing-was-perfect situations for me. I have literally just finished a demo mix of a song I've made using only 9/8. Haven't watched the video yet, but now I'm looking forward to the insights you will provide. They may prove very useful to me! Thanks, anyway! You are great!