The Problem With Androgyny

I have some issues with androgyny, and I'm going to lay them out.

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[keli]

"excuse me this a warrior's wolf tail" - sokka

[anthonynorman]

I think the issue is that "women" are able to wear "masculine" clothes, so all but the most "masculine" things have become neutral. Culturally, "women" can dress like "men", but "men" can't dress like "women." So, if a person looks neutral and adds "masculine" clothing, it's actually adding neutral clothing while adding "feminine" clothing means "woman" because "only" "women" wear "feminine" things.

TL;DR neutral + masculine = neutral
neutral + feminine = FEMININE

[sillycone]

I don't mind being called androgynous, but boy do I hate having femininity projected onto me just for having soft features.

[edanmac]

Slightly different frustration, but about the same subject.
In my eyes, society sees "androgyny" as "femininity on men" and "masculinity on women". So if you're n-b and looking for fashion inspiration, all the looks you can easily find are based around gender non-conformity, not the mixing (or absence) of both masculinity and femininity. 🙄

[ladygrey]

Androgyny tends to evoke a white skinny person. My friend who's started their journey to manhood loves dressing androgynously but as a heavier guy when we go to bars he's been told to his face he's ”just a butch lesbian”.

[pinballwitch]

While I can't speak as a trans masc person, I can say I am with you 1000% about being tired of "masculinity being the default". As a trans femme person, anytime I do anything even remotely masc now I get misgendered so much more often. Wear baggy pants? Didn't shave for a day? wear an oversized jacket? speak with my voice at a normal volume since i transitioned so late? get my hair cut shorter than my shoulders? all get at best called androgynous. It sucks.

[cecil]

Yes! I've hated this for so long as an afab enby!! If you're afab you HAVE to dress completely masculine for people to even consider the fact that you're not cis. I have long hair, I love my long hair and I would HATE to cut it but I literally never pass because of it, even when my outfits are never feminine in the slightest.

[ezranexcalibur]

ive literally said the sentence "sometimes i wish i was amab so feminine things would be seen as androgynous". this video made me realise that my idea of androgyny is ppl I'd expect to be men based on their face/etc presenting feminine and ppl I'd expect to be women presenting masculine. ive got some reflecting to do 😬

[rosefox]

THIS THIS THIS THIS THIS.
I want to be androgynous, in the original sense of the word, and I want to be perceived as androgynous. But in order to be perceived as androgynous I have to dress and act all masculine because my body with it's high estrogen and low testosterone levels is skewing the picture to the feminine side. It's incredibly annoying.
I'm thinking about medically transitioning and it's so frustrating because I personally am fine with my current low testosterone levels but I'm seriously considering altering them with hormone supplements because I want people to stop perceiving my body as so feminine that I need to balance it with amounts of masculinity that are unnatural to me.
I want to wear a suit and lipstick and have that be read androgynous because it is androgynous. But due to my body people will read that as feminine so I have to leave the lipstick be and go all masculine to be perceived as androgynous.
So basically I don't want the masculine presentation but I'm pushed into it because people read my body as inherently feminine and it fucking sucks.

[vid_bi_]

I'm agender and I put a lot of effort into dressing gender neutral. I get mistaken for a girl All. The. Time. and its so frustrating! Its like people look for the level of effects of testosterone on a person (or lack thereof) and make all their assessments of a person based on that, as if the choice of how one represents oneself has nothing to do with it.

[Swenglish]

I find myself in kind of the opposite situation. I'm agender, and my "presentation" is minimum effort, maximum comfort, which to me feels like neutral approach. I don't use my appearance to communicate my gender identity, because I have none, but with a canvas of an unambiguously male-perceived body (and voice) to begin with, minimum effort and maximum comfort read as masc-presenting. Culturally, the center line isn't centered, and it depends on your canvas. There's nothing I can think of that I could do to make my presentation "more genderless", because adding fem presentation to it would not be neutral from an effort standpoint. I'd have to spend money on makeup and time on learning how to apply it, and applying it regularly, or I'd have to wear physically restrictive clothing, which messes with my autistic sensitivities, or I'd have to do something else that basically amounts to "more gender", which is the opposite of what feels right to me. So all I'm left with is being perceived as more masc than I am because the cultural default is skewed.

[codypotter]

I'm a trans guy, I try to dress masculine but people will say when commenting on my looks that I look androgynous. It is painful because I'm wearing clothes that are perceived on a cis man as masculine and have a masculine hair cut bit people still call me androgynous.

[neekotheconvict]

I just wish I was as courageous as you all are here. I've lived a lie for my 22 years. Where do you all get your courage? I listen to you all and watch you and just hope one day I can openly live my truth. I'm soooo afraid of my dad. I'm so afraid

[yeat]

I'm nonbinary (as far as I know) and i really like being androgynous, although, since I'm afab, and haven't transitioned (and don't really plan to), i find it difficult to wear dresses, and skirts and such, since people will look at me and be very certain that I'm a girl

[CelesteM]

This is SO relatable, more than I thought it would be when I started watching it. I usually take androgynous as a compliment just because I'm so rarely read as male that I'll pretty much take anything that indicates maybe I at least wouldn't be immediately read as female. But realistically, nearly everything about my presentation is masculine so it is intensely frustrating that I can't be seen that way. I definitely feel kind of stuck in many ways with my expression because I feel like if I wear anything skewing feminine, even an accessory, it will make it even less likely than it already is that I'll get read as anything other than female.

[naemiaw]

Reminds me a lot of a transmasc person (or trans man I can't remember exactly) who was kinda angry that people always used descriptives such as "so cute" or "soft boi" with hearts and cute emojis for all their pictures, including when they were with very masculine postures and/or expressions.


I think it's exactly what you're saying about masculine being the reference for "neutral", and it's so invalidating for many of us...


PS: I'm doing the exact same thing with my hair for the exact same reasons... Very popular haircut in transmasc people lol

[tigerlilly]

I’m an old woman, so when I think of some of the classic androgynous looks, I think of David Bowie, Prince, Elton John, and Freddie Mercury.

[jaskierdraven]

There was a day I tried really hard to present as masculine and someone in my house (who I had told that I am non binary or gender queer, or whatever) flat out told me I would never look male. And it honestly hurt because he was so blatant about it and right after we had a good long conversation about it too. It may stem from the fact that he has a crush on me and would feel uncomfortable if I looked masculine in his eyes, but either way it was very hurtful and honestly hard for me to ignore because I hate femininity being pushed on me like that expecially by someone in my own household. I would honestly rather be looked at as neutral in my gender presentation and be called androgynous (however I have a hard time mixing feminine style into my own)

[chestersnap]

"I want to grow my hair out but I can't because then I'll look like a girl" This. This is why I don't usually correct people when they misgender me - why I'm often not even given a chance, too, since it's so "obvious" that I'm a woman (typing this makes me cringe). I don't have long hair but men's clothing does not fit me well so I primarily wear women's clothing. I don't really want to change the way I dress but the trade off is that it's significantly more difficult to get people to believe me when I say I'm not a woman. It's very frustrating. I think it has a lot to do with how women can wear all types of clothing and it's fine but men have a very narrow range of clothing options that are considered acceptable. I've been seeing more men challenging social norms and I hope that helps broaden peoples minds towards enbies, as well.


I'm going to get top surgery (hopefully soon) and I hope as a side effect that it'll make it more obvious I'm not a woman. I feel like it'll just leave people confused, though

[dangreen]

You're right. I'd say my presentation in my clothing is masc, but I'd definitely describe my entire presentation as androgynous. My voice, my gestures, my personality, it's all a mix of feminine and masculine social cues. My masculine clothing offsets my afab body and everything else is very mixed. I'd say it's completely fair to call me androgynous in any sense of the word, because that's what I'm going for.