The Orc Problem (in Rings of Power and generally)

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[mikeMakhno]

The fact that orcs reproduced sexually does not necessarily mean that they had loving families or even pair bonded.

[Treblig]

He said that Orcs spawned Orcs not that they had loving, protective families. Their personalities would certainly suggest that maybe they weren't brought up in a very nurturing environment. They seem kind of insecure.

[peterwolfe]

Great video. You nailed what I think the problem most Tolkien fans have with the show: the show runners are making choices (lore-breaking or not) which have consequences that they do not understand, and they have neither the interest nor the skill to handle them properly. In the films, Arwen rescues Frodo instead of Glorfindel, which breaks canon. But I doubt anyone really cares that much because it doesn’t cause any problems and makes sense to avoid introducing a whole new (badass) character. But introducing Gandalf in the second age certainly does. Ignoring the fact that his stupid mystery box was a mystery to no one and that his whole two-season arc has been about finding a stick and mishearing a name, his presence in the second age is a real problem. What is he going to do? Anyone who has watched even one episode of the show knows the answer: he will be a wandering hobo carrying a #10 can of deus ex machina. If you think Sauron and the rings just acquire whatever powers are necessary for the scene, you ain’t seen nothing yet. It’s lazy, frustrating and completely unnecessary. Same with not-Saruman.

The story of the blue wizards could be the entire show and, if done right, could be amazing. But the show runners lack the imagination and talent to even attempt it. So they gave us a dementia patient and Darth Butterfly instead. 🤦‍♂️

[ernestcampbell]

I hope the Barlogs get humanized in Season 3. We could see a nice happy of Balrogs: papa, mana, and baby. That would be so cool.

[kdkseven]

That shot of that orc family cuddling together feeling sad about their uncertain future is possibly the stupidest thing i've _ever_ seen on screen in my life. I still can't believe that they actually did that. It blows my mind.

[dinofelis]

To me the Orcs represent the absolute worst of humanity given form.
Take a Man (or Elf) and squeeze out of him all the compassion, selflessnes, loyalty, charity, wisdom and virtue and amplify his anger and hatred, his sadism and selfishness and destructive tendencies. Draw out all his worst impulses, hidden deep in his uncounsious mind, and you have an Orc.

[crazyralph]

Imagine being a fly on the wall during that Amazon writers block meeting in which they came up with that bird brain idea??? Bet they were all high fiving each other, thinking they were doing some groundbreaking stuff showing an Orc mom and dad clutching their little Orcling? 😂

[dimitris]

The problem with orc families in RoP is how do you fit the image of a merciless killing machine that might eat their prisoners and even eat each other, but then they have a nuclear family and they worry about their kids and act with affection in front of others? It's just silly. If they had to, they would have much better luck showing orcs raising their young ones like Spartans or something. Raising them in collective camps while training them for war. The nuclear family image is completely incompatible... They probably did it to give Adar's cause some merit, but it had no merit in the first place.

[gorcrow]

You don't need to know anything about Tolkien lore to effectively criticize this show - because it completely falls apart totally on its own (but it does help to know the lore, since you will see it fall apart even faster)

[BZolti]

My problem is, that all i hear is: we just want to live peacefully, but what i see is one of them licking blood off the knife he used to kill a horse.

[sukablat]

The main issue the ROP characterisation of orcs is that it ignores the archetype and purpose they were clearly made to fill and instead inserts modern allegory whereby the orcs are oppressed by Morgoth, then Sauron, and actually just want to have family bbqs or something (suggesting that they are just like humans only ugly and forced into evil, whereas Tolkien clearly intended that they were evil by nature via corruption of their souls). This just creates endless problems and doesn't really fit into the world. If they really wanted to make the orcs more interesting perhaps they could have portrayed them as somewhat tragic, playing into the issue Tolkien had whereby orcs obviously have souls but are so twisted and corrupted that they don't even have a chance at being good, maybe playing on themes Tolkien weaved in like the issue of evil existing at all, and his answer seemed to be that without evil, what is good, there are no hero's without adversity. (Eru illuvatar said that Melkor's discord actually increased the majesty of his creation, or something along those lines, it was obviously Tolkien ruminating on the deep philosophical questions about the existence of evil whilst also having an all powerful and good god).

Basically the problem is that ROP was clearly written by people who don't really understand (or choose to ignore) the deeper themes in Tolkien's work. It doesn't matter if something technically fits the letter of the lore if it completely subverts the themes of the book. Also the idea of writing a Wide Sargasso Sea type story about middle earth whereby we assume the position of 'evil is good' via some sort of paradise lost style characterisation of Melkor, might work as some sort of philosophical work, but you would lose what makes Lord of the rings compelling story.

[RMartian]

I always thought of the orcs like sharks. Sure, they're "born" from other orcs, but they don't get nurtured and raised. Lots of animals (like sharks) give birth then let the children fend for themselves. I feel like orcs would immediately put their children into some sort of pen where they would fend for themselves where only the strongest orcs could escape and join the horde.

Also, AI does influence (heavily) a lot of modern Hollywood. Years ago, studios started using AI Management Software that helped determine with great accuracy the profit margins of a movie. So, the scripts that were chosen were run through these machines and without having to tell writers anything, the "notes" they'd receive were based on what the AI determined. So you get A LOT of injection of the concept of "family" without any real connection to the story. Hence, orcs with families because ... reasons.

[profpapsmear]

Orc family life would be too brutal to depict to any audience. That's a horror movie.

[wolfmauler]

How about the Orc's attitude towards the environment, the natural world, vulnerable living things? They aren't without agency; they literally delight in choices that bring about violence, destruction, pollution. They have no reverence for life, even towards thier own kind.

[Natusian]

The fact that they multiplied and orc women would have existed does not confirm the existence of the orc nuclear family unit.

[fr.andygutierrez]

Fantastic exposition, Liene, truly. I’ve enjoyed all of your Rings of Power and Wheel of Time videos, but this was the first one that I’ve watched in which you delve into writing as a craft.
You presented your points succinctly, but with enough explanation that I followed your line of reasoning without any problem. I also learned a few things about the complexities of writing a good story. It’s no small feat to make a 37 minute YouTube video fly by, but you did just that. Thank you!

[nickhtk]

In terms of the Rings of Power Im jaded and think the writers were following the more modern trend of making villains as a misunderstood/unwilling PG-13 level of evil. Dumbed down, family friendly, trash.

Love the sweater BTW. :)

[GlazedLemon]

If anyone trying to humanize orcs could stand on the battlefield at Helms Deep and watch them tuck into a fresh elf corpse because they wanted some 'man meat', they definitely wouldn't be inviting the orc and his family round for tea and biscuits anytime soon for a chat about changing they're life goals lol

[chameleonarcher]

It's a very common misconception that Tolkien said his experiences didn't influence his work. What he did say was that he as the author did not intend any specific, single "true meaning" for anything in Middle-earth that "actually represents" anything in the real, modern world. The Dead Marshes are not the Somme in the sense that he didn't *intend* for the Dead Marshes to represent the Somme in the mind of the reader and therefore make some point about the Somme or the Great War generally; the Dead Marshes are the Dead Marshes. If you think of the Somme when you read about them, that's your experience of the story and that's just fine.

[Barbayat]

Honestly, the writers of RoP were clearly just jumping from highlight to highlight in favour of telling a coherent story. They aren't even close reaching an approach that would give them the space to do anything interesting with the orcs. It's all about single moments, which why you have the reveal of the effect of the ring on Adar, right next to him getting shanked, followed by a bit later Glug getting off. It's all "damn snap" moment. They never truly explore the characters, hence Galadriel's stupid over the top sadistic genocide speech, all that leads to is her having a generic discussion with Sauron afterwards about going to far without every having learned anything. It's all surface level.