Michael Shermer with Jared Diamond—Upheaval: Turning Points for Nations in Crisis (SCIENCE SALON65)

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For this special edition of the Science Salon Podcast Dr. Shermer took a camera crew to Jared Diamond’s home in Los Angeles for an especially intimate portrait of the man and his theories. You won’t want to miss this conversation, one of the best we’ve yet recorded, with one of the most interesting minds of our time, perhaps of all time.

In his earlier bestsellers Guns, Germs and Steel and Collapse, Jared Diamond transformed our understanding of what makes civilizations rise and fall. Now, in the final book in this monumental trilogy, he reveals how successful nations recover from crisis through selective change — a coping mechanism more commonly associated with personal trauma.

In a dazzling comparative study, Diamond shows us how seven countries have survived defining upheavals in the recent past — from US Commodore Perry’s arrival in Japan to the Soviet invasion of Finland to Pinochet’s regime in Chile — through a process of painful self-appraisal and adaptation, and he identifies patterns in the way that these distinct nations recovered from calamity. Looking ahead to the future, he investigates whether the United States, and the world, are squandering their natural advantages, on a path towards political conflict and decline. Or can we still learn from the lessons of the past?

Adding a psychological dimension to the awe-inspiring grasp of history, geography, economics, and anthropology that marks all Diamond’s work, Upheaval reveals how both nations and individuals can become more resilient. The result is a book that is epic, urgent, and groundbreaking.

This dialogue was recorded on March 13, 2019 as part of the Science Salon Podcast series hosted by Michael Shermer and presented by The Skeptics Society, in California.

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CREDIT

Shot and edited by Brian Keith Dalton

[Mr]

Dear Jared is a lighthouse of knowledge. Health and longevity for you sir.

[lcopywriter]

I'm enjoying this so much, what a treat to hear Jared Diamond, whose fascinating books have illuminated so much to me. I'm just 1/3 of the way through this, but it should be a must for anybody curious about the world and about why it is as it is, and we are as we are.

[davidanderson]

Old Jared Diamond is a national treasure. Love all his work. Thx M.Shermer D.A., JD, NYC

[Antoniathinks]

I have so many parallel experiences with Professor Diamond, it is a relief to see another voice these observations! I am grateful to see this valuable interview!!!

[alexds]

Now I understand why I enjoy his writing, despite a dislike of history... he has a background in science & his writing is all comparative! 😃

[Sidelinefighter-expert]

Jared is amazing, first time I’ve encountered him, thank you Michael

[bmclaughlin]

We need more people like Jared in the world.

[ALForb]

yeee got the chills when he called what's happening now with the US election

[yunwang]

read thru the book, such a interesting read. politicians in American should read this book. guide the country in the right way.

[brendankeefe]

Interesting statement by Michael at ~58:10

[davidanderson]

Wow! He learned FINNISH. That's incredible. I've been learning (in my free time, travels and at schools/unis) various languages all my life (Japanese, Russian, French, German, Arabic, etc) - but I won't go near Finnish. It has 15 cases or something and is hella complicated. Its no Swedish or Spanish my friend, Finnish is a hard hard slog. My hat off to Dr. Diamond. D.A. NYC

[polarbianarchy]

And the economy best serves humanity and human growth, when it acts like a gardener. We should try it

[andrewworth]

1:00:50 on the origins of agriculture. I haven't read Guns, Germs and Steel but I've a theory that the development of agriculture can be attributed to geography, specifically terrain that allowed semi isolated non-nomadic societies to develop and to invest in long term cultivation. So like an egg, an agriculture based society needs a shell to protect it from outside threats, it's making investments that are attractive to predation by outside tribes, if there's a defensible perimeter in the form of deserts, seas, rivers or mountainous terrain around a geographical area that can serve as a secure home for a close society, that society can profitably make the longer term investment in agriculture with a reasonable expectation of being able to defend it. In places where agriculture developed we see such natural barriers.

[JamesSmith-byqy]

Countries are actually very unique and each have unique circumstances, rather than the idea that all countries are exactly the same and should to exactly the same thing. They can be similar but are not exactly the same.

[thefakenewsnetwork]

Every race of people has a right to be its own

[serge-szawlow]

Now, listening to this great talk in 2024, and hearing that "Russia is a great example of dealing with crisis", and that's, by the way, after Russia annexed Crimea makes you think... I hope that Michael Shermer re-thought it as well

[JamesSmith-byqy]

South Korea, Japan, China, Mongolia, North Korea, Philippines, Vietnam, Algeria, France, Singapore, Pakistan, Thailand, India, the UK, Somalia, Iran, Isreal, Turkey, Libya, Saudi Arabia, Tunisia, Bangladesh, the UAE, Qatar, Bahrain, Kyrgyzstan, Russia, etc. I think in cases like these, their histories are just too different to compare. Some have/had wars, genocides, good geography, the ability of ocean trade, oil, politics, religions, gold, landlocked, lack of religion, revolutions, state breakdowns, good cropland, other easy resources, international aid, Marshall Plan money, communism, IMF loans, Exim bank loans, World Bank loans, etc. that other countries didn't have that particular event or that much aid.

[stevebenton]

Regarding the brief segment about the 2020 presidential election (at the 59 minute mark) and Trump refusing to step down if he is defeated, bear in mind that Trump appointed a commission to investigate the accuracy of the popular vote as one of his first acts as president. He actually contested the results of his own election victory. Imagine what he'll do if he loses.

[JamesSmith-byqy]

South Korea certainly very strange and tough economic and political history yet it is rich today.

[JamesSmith-byqy]

Country political situations, histories, and economic situations are often completely different. Countries can be very different from each other. Comparative hisory is very hard. Can the Philippines, China, Brazil, Russia, Iran, North Korea, Turkey, South Korea, Kosovo, Japan, Israel, Macau and Mongolia be compared. And then there's question whether Taiwan and Palestine, North Korea, South Korea, etc. are countries or not.