Beyond Fighting, Sneaking, and Talking

I brainstorm ways that role playing games can move past the combat, stealth, and dialog solutions they have used for decades.

Videos I reference:

[TonkarzOfSolSystem]

MGS3 had an “interrogation” mechanic where if you pointed your gun at an enemy (with a partial button press, PS2 supported partial presses) who is unaware of you Snake could get them to surrender.

They’d stick their hands in the air and Snake could demand stuff, like items, enemy numbers and positions, and a radio frequency Snake could use in the Codec to listen in on enemy communications.

This mechanic was handled completely dynamically and it combines sneaking, combat and talking in an entirely non-scripted way.

EDIT: IIRC you can also get one time codes to deactive alerts, so guards go back to their “unalerted” state.

[imALazyPanda]

Something i would like to see more of is enemies willing to give up. Not everyone wants to fight to the death all the time, you kill the commander morale might drop and theyll route or surrender. You launch a successful ambush and the enemy might throw their hands up and say dont shoot.

Very rarely does any group fight to the death irl, human(oids) will surrender or route, pack animals like wolves will simply flee if they lose the advantage. When i run tabletop games it is rare for everyone to be killed in combat(now if the players decide to execute them afterwards thats another story). Only when their backs are against a wall, with no way to retreat and they know theyll be killed if the surrender will most human(oids) fight to the death, unless its some amount of fanaticism like a cult.

The caveat is the player should gain full encounter xp even if they do not need to kill everyone, which the few games that do let you not kill everyone tend to ignore so the optimal way from a minmax perspective is kill everyone.

[BlphBain]

disco elysium provides a lot of unique skills that could be translated into new attributes. An Empathy skill that tells you what people are thinking seems very complementary to Speech, as well as a Visual Calculus skill that works with Perception to tell you exactly what you’re looking at. i’m a fan of skills that do one or two useful things on their own, and complement many other skills so that you can customize freely.

[kamazs]

I did some of those ideas in Space Wreck.

In particular, detect lie is PERCEPTION based and it is a hidden roll each time NPC says something to PC that has been marked as "lie". If you detect, you get either notification or, in some cases, a dialog option where you can confront them.

I also use SPEECH and CHARM in combat - if you have very high CHARM, you can directly control your party members (otherwise they behave like in Fallout). SPEECH allows you to "plead" to a single enemy (if no others in sight and you haven't engaged it yet). On success they won't attack IF you back away.

But yeah. good stuff, I think more RPGs should do it.

[driver]

I feel like Talk should be something you can do at any time, like crouched behind some cover, point your cross hairs at someone and say "What are they paying you for this job? I bet they even make you buy your own ammo, come work for me instead!" (barter + combat)
or
"Hey! I got you in an artery, you're about to bleed out." to make them run away after being damaged by you (combat + medical)
or
"Ok ok! I surrender! Take me to your boss, I have information he will want to hear." (combat + speech) they take your weapons except your hidden hold out pistol then escort you into the base to talk to the boss.
or
Sneaking up close to a guard then instead of a takedown, say "drop your weapon and tell them I am in a different area" (sneak + talk) to make the enemies all go to a spot on the map and you can get past... until you leave sight of that guy and he calls them back to say you are here, or maybe you KO him so he cant.

[HumanityAsCode]

If Baldur's Gate 3 allowed your co-op friends to jump into the middle of a conversation and offer up their skills for a roll it would be a much better co-op game. So many times a random player gets picked for dialogue and the most charismatic character just has to watch them fail at persuasion.

[adammoynihan]

Pathfinder Kingmaker was a total breath of fresh air for me with the kingdom management system as a mechanic in a CRPG, and i truly loved the ship management of Rogue Trader and Pillars of Eternity Deadfire. Spell force 3 was also a wonderful twist on the CRPG genre for me because half the game is an RTS.

[pixelizednofiltery.t.]

Tim theory-crafting builds is just what I needed this morning.

[WastelandChef]

As a player those times were you find that rare alternative way of dealing with a situation are especially rewarding and fun!

[yaginku]

I would really love to see more gameplay added to dialogues in mainstream RPGs. So many dialogues are just "give me more information/quit", or they have the dreaded skill checks for getting additional information. When you get a branching option, they're often cartoonishly exaggerated to be very placating or aggressive. I want to feel like I can answer an NPCs dialogue in multiple nuanced ways that have different positive results other than "I can make them angry". Maybe they can give you an item, maybe they can raise your reputation, maybe they can give you crucial information that you can use to persuade someone else - and crucially, you cannot get all of these at once. Obviously there are Baldur's Gate's companions, but I wish that could apply to more NPCs.

[Jewelsmith]

I love all of these ideas. The research camera in BioShock was an interesting game mechanic. The more photos you took of enemies, and the better the quality of the photos, the more you "learned" about them, which granted combat bonuses. And it combined well with stealth. I also like games with some kind of alchemy. There are so many possibilities beyond just healing potions, there could be poisoned weapons, truth serums, invisibility, grenades, smokescreens, vapors that cause hallucinations, etc.

[dangerouslydazzling]

I could listen to you all night Tim. Although flawed, Starfield did attempt many of the topics mentioned. Companions stepping in on chats is a great example. Please continue posting

[IbilisSLZ]

It's funny how many of those ideas were kinda (in very basic form) realised in Fallout/Fallout 2:
- Being good in medicine allows for finding weak spots: Living Anatomy perk giving extra damage against humanoids.
- Having good psychology knowldge gives hits about NPC reaction: Empathy perk.

About potential skill interactions (potentially systemic):
- High skill levels affecting bartering for particular items i.e. skilled mechanic could better estimate value of crafting related items.
- Use of deception sklills allowing for some combat trics (i.e. faking attack to reduce enemy's armor class).
- If utilising morale mechanics for enemies/companiont use of speech could be used for buffing/debuffing or even forcing enemies to flee (those you mentioned)
- Repair/armor related skills coud allow for identyfying enemys armor (and maybe finding weak spots - effectively reducing it's effectivnes).

[garrenbrooks]

I would watch a four hour long video of you and Leonard just sitting down and brainstorming.

[EfanGamez]

I made a game that solved this question! My TTRPG Neon Nights, fhike a bit rough because it was my first games made, crosses stats in a way through a really diverse perk system.

So, aomeone in a hugh Diplomacy stat may be, in the roleplaying stage, very skilled at sleaking to a crowd, but there are some perks that allows postions of your allies to change, as well as buffs thats apply to allies.

It was really cool; but since then i found out that because the system is really complicated, it made it kinda unwealdy for newer players. Nevertheless, my friends love it and have been playing it for 3 years now!

Also, love your videos, Tim! Huge inspiration 💛

[LinoWalker]

At first, I thought this video was going to be about using RPGs to explore themes like relationships, negotiations, major life events, and better relating to real life in general... But then again, I'm weird and this isn't stuff people want games to focus on.

[The_Discording_Tales_RPG]

This was a core aspect of The Discording Tales. To have 8 ways of interacting with the fabric of reality. Reusing your terms :
Combat, Sneak, Craftiness, Mobility, Talk, Vigilance, Knowledge, Leadership
Each are equally balanced in their possibilities.

[larsthedude]

One commentary I liked on ImSims is the idea of “not every problem is one size fits all.” You can’t always fight, sneak, and speak through everything. Perhaps the gate into an enemy fortress is manned by like thirty tough enemies, and unless you’re late game strong, there’s no way you’re realistically gonna fight your way in. Sneaking is probably the best, but your hacking skill is nonexistent as well as your hiding. Your best chance is probably bribing or lying your way in. But if you really have no skill in ANYTHING but fighting, you either have to make some big brain strategy improvised to try and get in. Maybe you can follow some obscure clues, and find a rogue agent of the bad guys who may give your the secret password, although is very hard to find him anyway.

[aNerdNamedJames]

I'd especially love if high Perception character builds were able to solve physical conflict non-violently via unlocked environment utilization (like "thanks to your high PER, you unlock the option to shoot down a stalagtite that's perfectly positioned to pin this raider boss's foot in place as he charges you, at which point he *does* kind of need to agree to stop attacking the town in exchange for help with with the stalagtite")

[AnotherDuck]

A lot of games have exploration as an option for solving problems. That can be stuff like finding out some extra knowledge that helps you bypass problems, or just finding a key, a code, a permit, or just a hidden button to get through a door or past a guard. On a grander scale, doing some quest can give you a solution to another problem. It's about things you do or find in the world that helps you solve problems. And these solutions by themselves can have different solutions to come by or unlock.