James Valliant’s Bogus Theory of a Roman Invention of Christianity | Dr. Carrier & Dr. Adair

@Drama-Valley

Subscribe to Drama Valley tagged above for more on the downfall of James Valliant.

In this livestream, Dr. Richard Carrier returns to History Valley podcast to decimate pseudo-historians James Valliant and Warren Fahy's book "Creating Christ: How Roman Emperors Invented Christianity." Dr. Aaron Adair will also be joining to focus on his research on where one of the coins in Creating Christ actually originated.

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𝕏Twitter: @Jacob56723278

[History-Valley]

I spoke to Markus Vinzent and he is not citing James Valliant and Warren Fahy’s garbage book.

[dougrobinson]

Thank you for having Dr. Carrier and Aaron Adair on.

[johnnehrich]

Two of my favorite mythocists, Dr. Carrier and Dr. Adair. Oh, happy days!

I'm sure you will be hearing it directly from John Gleason, but a few days ago, he had on Matthew Britt and Jaaron Wingo to discuss their recent book, Christ Before Jesus. Britt and Wingo used stylometric analysis to look at material in the NT. However, unlike others who have used this, they tried splitting the material into separate chapters. (They also did tests to see if these chapters were big enough samples for the program to give meaningful results - answer, apparently yes.)

They also concluded from this that Jesus was NOT a historical figure, but dated Paul and the gospels to the mid-second century. What I found most interesting is that they concluded that of the pauline letters, only four might have been written by one author, the one who claimed to be Paul. Even then, two of the four were only partially written by "Paul." (They also concluded Josephus clearly did NOT compose any of the gospels.)

So much has gone into to trying to argue about James, the "brother" of Jesus, and it isn't proof of a historical Jesus. I would think that if there wasn't an actual single guy writing under the name of Paul. AND the letters date so much later, there would be no way whoever he was could have met any such James at the time of Jesus.

I'd be interested to hear what you think of their use of stylometrics and also their conclusions (which come from this plus other clues in the NT).

[ObjectiveEthics]

Have I missed something that has placed a wedge between Jacob B and James V? I have always been under the impression that both of these gentlemen were not only friends but were co-researchers into Paul conspiracy theories being a Herodian.

I have seen many videos on HV that feature mr Valliant as the primary guest. I am curious why Jacob seems to be determined to "debunk" James book which he previously seemed to promote on this channel.

I'm not saying Jacob is right or wrong. I don't have enough knowledge about the situation to make any judgment but I am legitimately curious as to why the change of heart.

Furthermore Dr Carrier is one of my favorite sources for critical scholarship of the Bible and Christian belief systems and claims. As such I have noticed that Jacob has been quite dismissive of Dr Carrier on numerous occasions on this channel so what has caused this change of heart? I'm so confused about these events.

Finally, when did Richard and James have a discussion/debate and what wss the topic specifically?

I will say in closing that this was a fascinating if not confusing video definitely worth watching.

[josephbarnabas]

Pro roman NT gospels and letters of Paul as deflections of anti Roman messianic ethos remains stronger than any other theory anyone can imagine.

[pascalbercker]

It seems to me a bit ironic that insofar as the historicity of Jesus is concerned, Valiant and Carrier have more in common (who have a mythicist point of view) than with Jacob Berman who is (AFAIK) a confirmed historicist and indeed has made fun of Richard Carrier in the recent past for "Jesus From Outer Space" point of view. Have I misunderstood something here? Having read the book my sense is that Valiant is merely mistaken, but certainly not fraudulent in any sense that I could detect. There's a difference between careless - or even shoddy scholarship - and fraudulent scholarship. If I've understood correctly, the "new" evidence Valiant present turns out to be "fabricated" but not fabricated by them (but Carrier gives that impression?). The "new" evidence was in fact just drawing of Roman coins that James Valiant incorrectly thought were genuine coins. That's just bad scholarship or bad research.

I agree that the book has a lot of insinuations and vague suggestions. But that's par for the course given the state of the evidence. Just dating the gospels themselves is typical given in terms of intervals of several decades. I still found the book an interesting read because it's worth knowing why something like that turns out to be wrong.

[andreafox]

39:34 “Jesus, Fuck! Read it. Then get back to me. Otherwise, fuck off!” I think Carrier pushed all his buttons 😂. I can see this guy with fuses in his brain going phut! 😂

[CheddarBayBaby]

Gloves are off now. Valiant used to be a staple of these shows… no more I guess

[tavuzzipust]

Love it when these self-acclaimed experts start debunking each other and dismiss each other as crackpots.

When the Greeks conquered Kemet which they called Egypt. They created a hybrid parental deity in order to combine Egyptian mythology with Greek mythology. So they combined the Egyptian God Thoth with the Greek God Hermes. They called him Hermes Trismegistus III. Who was known as… “The Thrice Great.” He was famous for triumphing over the season of death. Which is what the number 3 almost always symbolizes in World Mythology. Isn't this what the Flavian Dynasty did after conquering the Jews? Didn't they create a new hybrid form of Greco-Roman Judaism? To integrate Jewish mythology with Greco-Roman mythology? Calling him… “Jesus The Christ.” Who is also famous for triumphing over the season of death. As represented by… “The Trinity.” Isn't this a better explanation for the origins of Christianity rather than Harry Houdini magic? 💙

[jeffh]

Nice one guys. I remember the recent video with Valliant with Dr Carrier on Josephus and his behaviour was very telling

[scottpierce]

I don't understand the vitriol Jacob is showing to James at the moment? Is he such a fair weather friend that he backstabs him as soon as he thinks it is profitable to do so? I used to like the way Jacob and James interacted when they were a frequent podcast duo. Now Jacob just looks like some petty woman scorned on the spectrum throwing a tantrum. Unsubscribed.

[skepticalCoder]

This is great. Carrier is the GOAT, my fave historian, and Aaron Adair....love listening to his analysis of things. Super smart and detailed as could be. As for that back and forth between Dr. Carrier and James Valliant (who is such a hack xtian non-historian historian apologist), Dr. Carrier, , please publish that on your blog! That's pure gold. Would love to see more videos of you 3 on together. Felt super engaged the entire time.

[meatloafhead]

I think the most simple answer is that ROME would NEVER have willingly forsaken their own gods!
Some adoption or appreciation of other gods sure…. But a complete forced erasure NO WAY!
ROME had complete control ALREADY so why destroy your own power via some obscure new faith from the very people they didn’t like and destroyed several times over????
The only people that could believe Rome created Christ are people that have never studied pagan Rome…
The religion ruined ROME forever, … now it’s just a very wealthy church in Italy

[seoigh]

43:00 I don't want to defend Valliant -- trust me, I really don't. But isn't that part of the book saying that contemporary coins are similar to the Catholic clip art symbol -- and not that the clip art IS a coin. I grant they don't cite it as clip art -- but I thought the point was that old coins had images that overlap Catholic iconography to this day.

[Chris-opyt]

maybe they were not the originators of some initial ideas that were a mix of judaism and other things but, the roman empire did make christianity (political fiction that it is) a reality for the roman empire and it's why it's still with us.
i'm sure that the political fiction of christianity was massively shaped by the roman empire elites over centuries.
religions are not some hermit's good ideas that got scribed and copied and kept pure.

[WBFbySteefen]

Decimating psudo-historian James Valliant and Warren Fahy after years ago I told Derek Lambert and Luther Williams I was not impressed with James Valliant's book. I even posed a question to Bart Ehrman about it and Bart implied Valliant's line of reasoning does not hold up. Luther and I are out of communication because he supported Derek and Valliant instead of me. And, that is part of the reason why Derek and I are not Facebook friends. Valliant is part of the reason why Derek didn't promote me having a necessary conversation with Joseph Atwill.

Derek and Luther made so much about the Valliant Fahy book, I bought it. Then Derek had Atwill promoting Valliant's effort. I was writing my own book, so I checked it out. I through it in the garbage. It was such a low quality book. There was NOTHING I could use in my study of the historical accuracy of the bible.

So this is where I start before watching this video.

Steve Campbell author of
Historical Accuracy
currently working on the second edition

[SklLLLY]

Lol at Carrier complaining about “long, childish, insulting rant post” tactics 😂 That really happened…

[call_me-jo]

Has Jacob and valiant broken up ?? It's been a while since I joined the channel

[Nightowl]

I remember seeing this book cover before proudly plastered on some giant board behind the author when he was part of various interviews. I remember thinking that it was one of the UGLIEST book covers I've ever seen. With those scribbles on it, reminds me of when that science ballon crashed in Roswell and the crackpots were showing all these "alien hieroglyphics" they claim they thought they'd seen on what in their imagination was a flying saucer.